Camelback Mountain School CMS

[Glenn]

And my take the freestyle comps are as they relate to this thread, really. CB is stepping up their program to make it much more substantial, with cross training in gates. Sounds less like something a garage band kid would be into and more like a grass roots program.

 

You're right, and if anything kills the freestyle movement it will be stuff like this IMO of course. The sex pistols would never have come from an after school program.

[DHarrisburg]

You're right, and if anything kills the freestyle movement it will be stuff like this IMO of course. The sex pistols would never have come from an after school program.

 

Hence my attitude towards USASA and FIS events. If you compare skateboarding to snowboarding and the level and types of competition that are available for young kids one thing is blatantly apparent: parents of snowboarders are willing to drop copious amounts of money on their kids so that they can compete, and all it does is fund organizations that push for a more homogenized snowboarding world. I applaud Volcom, Dragon, Rome, Forum, and many other companies that are willing to hold amateur snowboarding contests with focus on fun and style over hucked spins and shoddy judging

[Papasteeze]

I applaud Volcom, Dragon, Rome, Forum, and many other companies that are willing to hold amateur snowboarding contests with focus on fun and style over hucked spins and shoddy judging

 

but isn't that the true grass roots movement? All there is after the local comps is the video sponsorship programs, move to bigger venues out west and hope to have the skills to get noticed to be in a Mack Dawg production?

 

I guess I am hoping for a morphing of types where the competitors do participate in things like USSA/USASA/FIS etc etc and try and improve things. I can't stand by and tell my kid that those comps are beat and not try to change them for the better. There is power in numbers.

[Ski]

You're right, and if anything kills the freestyle movement it will be stuff like this IMO of course. The sex pistols would never have come from an after school program.

IDK, maybe and maybe not. There's probably room for both, just like there's room for a huge recreational race program like NASTAR, while there's also the competitive USSA racing. And the two programs don't mix, since they both involve the same ages. And remember how Jake Burton totally trashed the idea of snowboarding as an Olympic sport...while fully sponsoring a bunch of Olympic snowboard athletes. Smart guy.

[Glenn]

IDK, maybe and maybe not. There's probably room for both, just like there's room for a huge recreational race program like NASTAR, while there's also the competitive USSA racing. And the two programs don't mix, since they both involve the same ages. And remember how Jake Burton totally trashed the idea of snowboarding as an Olympic sport...while fully sponsoring a bunch of Olympic snowboard athletes. Smart guy.

 

 

... a lot of people don't respect Jake Burton anymore because of things like that.

 

There maybe be room, but I'm guessing not. I can't tell you which side will dominate the scene. Anyways, thats why I said if anything kills freestyle....

[AtomicSkier]

I've been thinking throughout reading this entire post, what motivates USSA racers? There is no prize after every race, there is no money involved. What's the reward then? The ultimate prize, getting a spot in the Junior Olympics, or furthermore, making the US Development team. That's what USSA racers strive for. They strive for points, not money. They go to events for the points in search of that ultimate prize. Too many kids these only care about money and material things. What ever happened to doing your best to try to win, where winning was a prize in itself. When skidude wins his first PARA Cup race this year, will he be pissed because he didn't get any swag afterwards? Hell no, it'll be the best day of his life. Maybe the problem here is that there are no prestigous events like that in the freestyle scene. If the purse for the Master's dropped from 8 million to no money at all. Would Tiger still play? Yes. It is the prestige of wining such a tournament that draws players to the Masters. To one day said "I won the Masters" is a dream of professional golfers everywhere. To say "I won a PARA Cup race is a dream of but a few racers in PA. Maybe that's what USASA is trying to be? That would be a good thing. And maybe in the beginning swag is necessary, because of how many kids are so material driven. But in the end, the drive for success needs not to be for material items, but for the sole purpose of saying "I won the PA Freestyle Championship" to show that he or she was the best. And in the end, isn't being the best the thing that will get you those coveted sponsorships?

 

Maybe it's just so much different in the freestyle world, but I can't imagine why the ultimate goal couldn't be for success, and not gear. Is Nipples drive to compete to get gear? Or to get recognized? If it is to get recognized, the prize for winning is irrelevant.

[Papasteeze]

I can't imagine why the ultimate goal couldn't be for success, and not gear. Is Nipples drive to compete to get gear? Or to get recognized? If it is to get recognized, the prize for winning is irrelevant.

 

everyone is different, every kid is different, I have a very different viewpoint than ski.

 

why are you trying to figure one or a couple of reasons why kids do things? the tiger thing I think you are wrong on. His Dad I doubt, would have had him playing golf if there wasn't prize money. He would have groomed him into a different sport. It's a good question, that unless it was asked of him already, will never be answered.

 

As far as Ridge goes. Racing started for him when he beat me down a Squaw Nastar Course fair and sqaure at age 8. He did a few more Nastar races against me, whenever I saw them at a resort. He always loved going fast, his brother, on the other hand, was always in the trees jumping off stuff and out onto trails. If we could post videos here I would post some back country jumps we built at Alta when he was really young.

 

Ridge, ended a season with me checking his Nastar results. The following season, he remembered going fast and then seeing how he compared to other kids. He saw that he did really well comparitively. I joined here mid season, and listened to the likes of you JEFF say that Nastar wasn't nothing, "if he really wants to see how good he is he needed the USSA". The rest of the road is well documented.

 

I will tell you this, he DOES NOT like USSA racing, it is boring to him. If you seem him ask him what he thinks, he will tell you if you are persisitent. He also recognizes that you can get better in other ways than joining a race team. For example, he was pissed that he felt like he never got to train on gates. I listened. I got him training in Breck for slalom because was disappointed with his preivious results. When he got back to the Derbies he did "really really well." He likes hanging out and skiing with friends but doesn't like the racing itself. At my insistence he is racing this year with his goal of the whistler shootout. He wants to take his mom to whistler to show her how awesome that mountain is. I really doubt he will want to race next year. He will tell you that he wants to change to freestyle, because it is more fun.

 

Why must the majority of you think that you compete for the reason to achieve stardom, thats not realistic!

 

nipples, lol! He likes being at the top, he likes the attention. He rarely talks about the stuff he has won or his sponsors or any of that. He doesn't need swag, he has double and triple of everything he could possibly need. He does it for the attention I would imagine. On the other hand he too just likes to have fun. " Comps are beat" He never wanted to race, he wanted to jump on steel thingies because thats what is cool. It was megan who told him he should try and compete. similar story as Ridge, one year he placed second at every NextSnow qualifier he was in (4 of them), that pissed him off. I explained to him that with local judged events, the local kid is always going to win unless it is obvious that you are twice as good. The rest is history.

 

What motivates kids? their parents.

 

And in the end, isn't being the best the thing that will get you those coveted sponsorships?

 

No. It helps. but NO! Sponsorships unfortunatly, are to often gotten by kids who are good that want free stuff. Nipples is on a much different path.

[snorovr]

Doesn't matter what sport you coach, freeridintre. Kids are all the same. I've coached kids that were four years old, on up to 21 yrs. I helped run an alpine program for about six seasons, as well as coached soccer and baseball for more than a dozen years.

 

Kids are all the same.

 

I've been talking to parents, instructors, other coaches, and people deep into the freeride community for a while now trying to see what the best way to coach the freeride program is. We've talked about making a program that is very structured, where we would spend alot of time on gates or doing drills and things of that nature. The kids like to call them "race team things."

 

When I talked to parents, since they are the ones paying for the program, I asked if we should start doing more gates and work more on skiing fundamentals along with the freeride aspect. The answer I have gotten so far from the people that have been involved with the program is an overwhelming "NO!" We heard time and time again last year that kids went home more excited about skiing than they ever were while racing (which felt to them like one long boring lesson), and that they couldn't wait to come out again next weekend. I do want to do more of that stuff this year, but am definitely going to find ways to make it fun. Maybe the fastest or most improved skiing switch through the gates gets a company t-shirt from a sponsor, which brings me to my next point.

 

The kids love to have the same clothes that they see us wearing when we ski, and in a way we are coaching them in that too. Positive or negative influence? You decide, but I know I was always trying to wear the clothes that the big kids were wearing when I grew up.

 

Are there kids still having fun on the race team? Hell ya! I've always loved to go fast and would've loved to race as a kid, but it just wasn't something my parents gave me the option of doing or I didn't beg enough. However, there are a few faces who watch us as we go past, and they have openly said that they would switch in a heartbeat if their dad or mom would let them.

 

Some kids wanna race, some kids wanna jump and ski backwards. We don't force any of our athletes to compete, but we encourage them to. Not only is it a great way to get some experience under pressure, but ya might win something too!

[Ski]

Both Tiger and his dad have been quoted many times over saying the prize money was irrelevant. His dad loved golf and wanted Tiger to be a champion. If golf was on par with archery prize money, Tiger would be living in a shack somewhere filled with trophies. And he'd be happy. And anyway, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Brett Favre, Lance Armstrong, the Williams sisters, et al, make NOTHING by winning events compared to their sponsorship deals. They don't enter for cash or swag...that simply comes to them when their agents handle the money deals.

 

There was a study done during the summer Olympics a few years back. They asked Olympic-hopeful athletes what they'd sacrifice for a gold medal. The consensus was that they'd give up all of their possessions and 10 years of their lives. To be clear, they wanted no money and would be willing to die 10 years early. They just wanted the title of Olympic Champion.

 

Crazy? Not to me. One of the most all-consuming sports has to be NCAA Division 1 wrestling. Thousands of high school kids would give anything to wrestle for Iowa...to be part of the greatest program in history. There's no money involved and graduates have usually wrestled their last match as a college senior. They reach the peak and the end at the same time. Why do they give up everything for a shot at a plaque? I imagine it's because they learned a series of lessons from coaches and parents through their lives, that striving for a goal and the journey that is involved is sucess in itself.

 

I don't think "fun comps" are bad, any more than I think the goofy races we hold at our ski hill are bad. It's all good. I certainly see and respect Glenn's take on comps. But if I had a little kid that wanted to be a boarder/jibber, I'd definitely go with a structured route. Most of the park kids I notice can do some cool tricks, but are TERRIBLE skiers. It's like watching a kid that can slam dunk, but can't dribble. The "race stuff" that's being taught to freestylers has a purpose: to teach kids edge angles, carving, balance, skeletal alignment, and all the other BASICS of how to ski. Not sure how that's a bad thing.

 

Rob: why are you forcing Ridge to do something he's beginning to hate and resent? Why not move him to Blue's race program? Or just let him goof around on NASTAR courses? Kids are usually closer to 'Dude's age before they burn out from racing. And being bored is the first and biggest indicator. That usually doesn't disappear.

[snorovr]

 

I don't think "fun comps" are bad, any more than I think the goofy races we hold at our ski hill are bad. It's all good. I certainly see and respect Glenn's take on comps. But if I had a little kid that wanted to be a boarder/jibber, I'd definitely go with a structured route. Most of the park kids I notice can do some cool tricks, but are TERRIBLE skiers. It's like watching a kid that can slam dunk, but can't dribble. The "race stuff" that's being taught to freestylers has a purpose: to teach kids edge angles, carving, balance, skeletal alignment, and all the other BASICS of how to ski. Not sure how that's a bad thing.

 

Rob: why are you forcing Ridge to do something he's beginning to hate and resent? Why not move him to Blue's race program? Or just let him goof around on NASTAR courses? Kids are usually closer to 'Dude's age before they burn out from racing. And being bored is the first and biggest indicator. That usually doesn't disappear.

 

The increasingly used argument that many freestylers never really learned to ski is a very valid one. It something I've said myself many times. The coaches at Blue are at least PSIA Level 1 instructors, so are first and foremost skiers. I don't know how many other mountains require this, but I think its a good way to make sure that if something needs to be corrected from a skiing standpoint, we know how to spot it and correct it. Is that to say that we are gonna be harpin on these kids and nailing them every time they come out of posture, hell no. Just run a demo if its necessary and remind them every so often and you can usually coax someone into correcting themselves without them realizing it. These freeride programs are a great second option because kids are still getting many of the fundamentals and skiing instruction type pointers from well qualified instructors, but since it is in a freeride format they have a lot more fun than they were having in the race program.

 

Note: I'm not saying that racing isn't fun, just that people wanna do different things and I think its great that kids have another option.

[Papasteeze]

Rob: why are you forcing Ridge to do something he's beginning to hate and resent? Why not move him to Blue's race program? Or just let him goof around on NASTAR courses? Kids are usually closer to 'Dude's age before they burn out from racing. And being bored is the first and biggest indicator. That usually doesn't disappear.

 

You are a total ASSHOLE for construing my comments into using the words hate and resent. Where do I say that I am forcing him, ASS

 

I will tell you this, he DOES NOT like USSA racing, it is boring to him.

 

Racing is boring to him, maybe its just too easy. It isn't fun, its boring just like you.

[Papasteeze]

Ridge is typing his response right now

[ridge]

ski you are totaly roung. you f,ing retared im not foced into racing...i love skiing but im lossing my motivation to keep at such a strik sport. like when im training the stupid cochas dont put any thing my level to do. when you race gates u forcse your self to turn faster or slower and when you ski on the slopes u can take them any way u want. when i went out to brek i trained slamon gates for 3 hours every day for a week and when i came back i owned every body in salmon. who ever thinks my dad is pushing me into ski racing u guys are all ass

[Papasteeze]

The increasingly used argument that many freestylers never really learned to ski is a very valid one.

 

yes it is. Steven will race some at my insistence, not forced, he recognizes he has going to have to put up with his friends calling him gay. Who last year said I was punishing steven? Making him race was punishment? Steven said that. Just so he can still look cool. But we been through all of that.

[Papasteeze]

Futhermore, I am about sick of all the bullshit advice that I have heard. My kids don't live close to a slope, only weekend ski, don't train with any particular group or coach. They don't come from a family of athletic competitive snow sports. If you all have this idea that you do sports to be the best you can be, then maybe, just maybe, others could take a lesson from my kids on what they are doing to be good at what they do.

[Ski]

ski you are totaly roung. you f,ing retared im not foced into racing...i love skiing but im lossing my motivation to keep at such a strik sport. like when im training the stupid cochas dont put any thing my level to do. when you race gates u forcse your self to turn faster or slower and when you ski on the slopes u can take them any way u want. when i went out to brek i trained slamon gates for 3 hours every day for a week and when i came back i owned every body in salmon. who ever thinks my dad is pushing me into ski racing u guys are all ass

 

You are calling me a fucking retard?

[Papasteeze]

However, there are a few faces who watch us as we go past, and they have openly said that they would switch in a heartbeat if their dad or mom would let them.

 

A few, just a few? Too bad we can't just run out and conduct a survey, I know that in a blind survey outside of the race room you will find that it is more than a few...

[Ski]

You are a total ASSHOLE for construing my comments into using the words hate and resent. Where do I say that I am forcing him, ASS

 

 

 

Racing is boring to him, maybe its just too easy. It isn't fun, its boring just like you.

 

And you are calling me a "total ASSHOLE"?

[Justo8484]

so it took me about half an hour to read through this whole mess, and if i put as much effort into my schoolwork thats due tomorrow as i am about to into this post, i'd have a 4.0 right now, but regardless...

 

lots of good and bad points made here. i guess i kinda set things off on a bad note ripping on USASA, but thats how it is. i agree with some that there should be some sort of level playing field for skiers/boarders across the country to compete on, but USASA does not provide that. for me, my brother, and miller, who all did USASA together to see where we stood against others from the area over a season, we didnt really get anything out of it as far as feedback or recognition goes because the talent pool for our age group was so small. there were even fewer skiers in the younger age group. nips and a kid named jesse were the only two to compete. i'd assume they did it for similar reasons we did, to see where they stand and because, hell, winning and getting a gold medal that you can hang on your wall and show your kids 20 years from now is pretty cool. i know i thought it was pretty cool when my dad told me about how he used to race and was highly ranked in the state at one point. some day i'll be able to tell my kids the same, that back when i was in college, i was one of the top freeskiers in the area winning medals and having fun with my great crew of friends going from mountain to mountain representing our crew and what we do. the problem with USASA though is that winning isnt always based on merit. while this wasnt really a factor in my grouping, it was very apparent with the snowboarders. the kids who had been doing it for years and got to know the organizers and judges consistantly placed better than kids who were equally talented but didnt have the name. also, as DH has said, its very spin-to-win based. there were snowboarders who were super styley on everything, pressing the crap out of every box and rail and spinning slow smooth grabbed 5s who were losing to kids tossing sloppy 7s and 9s with no grab. its a flaw in the system and format of it, not necesarily in a national competition itself, if that makes any sense.

 

as far as the whole schwag/prize thing goes, obviously its not the intent that getting free stuff drives the sport, until you reach a certain level where you are trying to make riding your livelyhood. if you look at any of the top pros, they all started out freeskiing because they liked it. most of the top pros came from race or mogul backgrounds, and just got burned out with it and started tossing heli's off any little lip they could find or started sliding handrails and whatnot. however, once you get to a certain point where you are dedicating a large amount of time and money into the sport, getting something besides intrinsic value back from it is huge. again, using myself as an example, i love to ski, always have, and always will. i'll be sliding rails and tossing myself off jumps, cornices, windlips, and whatnot til my knees cant take it anymore, cause its the most fun thing on skis to me. as far as comps go though, i'm not going to bother with a comp that has shitty prizes going to riders that arent necesarily the best, like USASA. Paying upwards of $100 after comp fees, lifts, and gas and food is accounted for and then not getting anything out of it besides maybe a crappy trophy that they melted the tails of the skiers skis up so it almost represents freeskiing is just not worth it to me. you sit around waiting for your two attempts at a course to show that you are the best, are forced to sometimes learn new tricks and progress far to quickly and sometimes, like my friend and i did last year, come away with injuries that looking back on it, were definately not worth it. if there's money on the line, i'm much more inclined to launch myself 10 feet into the air, spin around a little bit, then land on a 3 inch wide piece of steel and ride away from it. i deal with race kids and parents in the shop coming in for new gear, and i guess i dont understand why they need new skis every year, because til i started hitting rails, my stuff definately lasted more than one year. for freeskiers though, most of our parents dont give it the full blind faith backing that parents give to racing because there is no ultimate standard or goal for us to meet, and therefore we have to pay for more of the gear on our own. having an extra incentive, such as a pair of new skis or some cash, to do well in a comp helps us out.

 

i dont think that free gear is what is motivating the younger kids in our sport to do comps at this point. ultimately its up to the parents whether the kid does the comp or not, but a lot of kids, like nips, just like to show off and tell everyone that they won this contest, or that race, or whatever. like trev said, blue's program didnt use free gear to get kids to do something, it was just an added bonus at the end of the day, and i think that just makes it more fun for the kids. if you can have a kid tell their parents on the car ride home that they had fun with their instructor that day, thats what matters. if the instructor is making it fun for the kid, they'll want to go back the next weekend, whether they had fun because they progressed their ability, made new friends, or just like skiing for what it is.

 

and to ski about the 300% markup thing, you worked in a shop before, you should know that no ski shop makes that large of a margin on anything of substantial value. the gear given out at comps, like skis, bindings, helmets, goggles, that sort of stuff isnt even 100% for the most part. stuff is given out to promote the shop and give the competitors a sense of good will towards the shop, which the shop hopes comes back to them when they need some other new gear, or they tell their friends they got a cool new helmet from whatever shop it was at a comp. its all advertising, but it benefits everyone.

[snorovr]

Thin ice Papa...

[Ski]

I have my beer and popcorn ready for this one...

 

I'm not taking the bait. Greg's been pretty clear when it comes to personal attacks. I'll let the mods sort it out. Guy says his kids bored and it's too easy for him---and the kid says his coaches are stupid. That's their own little train wreck to deal with. I feel sorry for them, despite the personal attacks.

[Justo8484]

I feel sorry for them, despite the personal attacks.

 

you've taken personal attacks of your own...

[Ski]

you've taken personal attacks of your own...

 

That's just piling on. You've done it before. I totally disagree with someone's approach or tactics, then we have a discussion. Sometimes heated, but always involving a point. Big difference between that and just screaming YOU'RE A TOTAL ASSHOLE and YOU'RE A FUCKING RETARD.

 

You are free to disagree.

[snorovr]

That's just piling on. You've done it before.

 

You are free to disagree.

 

Everyone has and will continue to. This thread has many obvious examples of personal attacks using different techniques. Some are subtle, others are more direct. Realize that sometimes the more subtle attacks are actually worse than the more direct, yet they are let go.

 

Group cry... Then lets play nice shant we?

Edited October 30, 2006 by freeridintre

[CaptDave]

 

What makes you think that since I didn't go to college immediately after High School I will never go? I'm looking forward to futhering my education but I feel that this isn't the best time for me to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

I went from high school right into college and then right into a career. In many respects I am rather fortunate for that but I must say if I could rewind time I think I would take a year or so somewhere along the way and lived a winter dream.