toast21602 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 How many lift tickets did Boulder sell when kids were hiking? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirfrancisbacon9 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 i think what p.steeze is trying to say is that ski areas can set up some decent stuff with little snow and focus on other snowmaking terrain for the everyday skier. Think, you give a small length of trail (not even covered edge to edge but deep enough for least amount of mud) and set up some rails, boxes, mini-walls etc. While the park rats are sessioning, u can blow snow on other trails, as long as its a good set up, we wont complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Imagine yourself in the resort's position. The all-mountain skier wants steeps, the bump skier moguls, the racer gates, the father greens, and the new-schooler jibs. Who do you please? The resort tries to maximize happiness, and maximize profits, by catering to all of these types of skier, because it realizes its clientele is more varied than this or that category. The person who wants to ride the park is not the only one under consideration when the resort makes its decisions. New-schoolers are one of many, not the chosen few. Get over yourselves, and realize your place as part of a larger whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdew Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Exactly where I"m at right now. When I first started riding I progressed through each part of the mountain and never even thought twice about jumps or rails. At this stage in the game I have done every black/double black in the area over and over and over again. Within the realm of progression on trails I'm done right about now. There isn't a trail in this area where I feel I have to progress more on. Try progressing to the point that you can do each of those black/double blacks in the area over and over riding switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdew Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 At least understand that Sno, Alpine, Tanglwood, Bear Creek, NJ's Mountain Creek, and possibly a few others, would be long ago bankrupt. I suggest you consider a modicum of gratitude to go along with your dismissive sarcasm. The Poconos survived because of these 'sense of entitlement' Ass Clowns. You seem to be suggesting that the ecomonic impact on the survival of the resorts justifies the "park-rats" selfish, obnoxious, whinney, me-first behavior. There is no excuse for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) You seem to be suggesting that the ecomonic impact on the survival of the resorts justifies the "park-rats" selfish, obnoxious, whinney, me-first behavior. There is no excuse for that. i'm a park rat. thanks for judging me based on what you see from other people. everybody who has commented in this fucking thread has made these judgements that don't relate to all people who like to ride park. there is no excure for that! Edited January 25, 2007 by toast21602 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) You seem to be suggesting that the ecomonic impact on the survival of the resorts justifies the "park-rats" selfish, obnoxious, whinney, me-first behavior. There is no excuse for that. what do you call someone who goads a 12 year old into hitting 60' jumps.. sorry... I couldn't help stooping to your level. Try progressing to the point that you can do each of those black/double blacks in the area over and over riding switch. Now seee, here is another example of what? What do you call this? Edited January 25, 2007 by Papasteeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Imagine yourself in the resort's position. The all-mountain skier wants steeps, the bump skier moguls, the racer gates, the father greens, and the new-schooler jibs. Who do you please? The resort tries to maximize happiness, and maximize profits, by catering to all of these types of skier, because it realizes its clientele is more varied than this or that category. The person who wants to ride the park is not the only one under consideration when the resort makes its decisions. New-schoolers are one of many, not the chosen few. Get over yourselves, and realize your place as part of a larger whole. And imagine if you are any one of those people and the mountain went out of it's way to misuse the resources it allocated towards the terrain you like to ride. Further the misuse of those resources wasn't because of anything other than the manamgent getting involved where they had no idea what was going on. The only analogy that compares is managment telling the race coaches they can only setup gates in a straight line because anything else would be unsafe. The coaches know what they are doing, but the managment would be undermining their efforts. It's hard to screw up the other areas, steeps you groom, bump runs you don't groom, greens you groom, and gates you leave up to the coaches. All of those disiplines are well established and with the exception of the gates, it doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge to make it happen in an acceptable fashion. The park industry is still learning how to build good parks, and to have the best parks available you need to have someone that rides them on a regular basis set them up. It's not rocket science but it does take a bit of finesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 ^^^^^ Well put Glen. The best example of progression and management of the parks happening right now at a neighboring resort where the GM, who I have seen throw 3's and slide the boxes with style, is also the lead park designer and groomer as is the Mountain Manager of that same resort. Albeit that is an extreme example, but maybe not, I predict that the Keiths, Andys and Joes of today are upper Ski Resort management of tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 You seem to be suggesting that the ecomonic impact on the survival of the resorts justifies the "park-rats" selfish, obnoxious, whinney, me-first behavior. There is no excuse for that. No, I'm clearly stating that the sport of skiing had become so tired and expensive and static, that by the mid-80's, many PA ski areas were on the verge of closing. Then came snowboarding, followed by kids that wanted to do the same terrain on skis... Dude, I skied Vernon Valley/Great Gorge 100's of times and they are the ultimate example of a resort saved by "obnoxious" kids. VV/GG was probably the most pathetic ski area in America, right after the Playboy Club closed. So if you 'invite' a thousand teenagers---mostly boys---to your business, you want them to be sure to check their attitude in the parking lot? There's no difference in what they are doing today, compared to when we were jumping off the lift at CB and Shawnee. Funny how ski areas used to have NO JUMPING signs absolutely everywhere. CB actually had a sign that said: "Leave the ground and leave your ticket". I know, because I stole one of them. Eh, I mean my friend stole it. So I'm really just saying that as long as resorts are welcoming the influx of money from these kids, then they need to grow a thicker skin and laugh some of the bullsh*t off. Yes, there are more teenage park rats out there than ever, but they even practice a kind of self-isolation by hanging where they do. Don't want the families to have to endure these kids, then make sure your newbie park is next to the beginner slopes. And if it's just that you are sick of reading MB posts, I'd suggest looking at the bigger picture: 15 and 16 year old kids using technology to create change in corporate America. You can mock that, but I think it's pretty accurate. There's no problem that isn't easily solved with out having to sound like Mr. Vernon: And if you really think whinney, me-first behavior is exlusive to park rats, then you probably haven't yet raised a teenager. (No offense, Zonked. I love you and you're perfect ) This isn't my battle, so that's my last bit of input. (BTW, thanks, Glenn ---I'd missed seeing that 'til just now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 And imagine if you are any one of those people and the mountain went out of it's way to misuse the resources it allocated towards the terrain you like to ride. Further the misuse of those resources wasn't because of anything other than the manamgent getting involved where they had no idea what was going on. The only analogy that compares is managment telling the race coaches they can only setup gates in a straight line because anything else would be unsafe. The coaches know what they are doing, but the managment would be undermining their efforts. It's hard to screw up the other areas, steeps you groom, bump runs you don't groom, greens you groom, and gates you leave up to the coaches. All of those disiplines are well established and with the exception of the gates, it doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge to make it happen in an acceptable fashion. The park industry is still learning how to build good parks, and to have the best parks available you need to have someone that rides them on a regular basis set them up. It's not rocket science but it does take a bit of finesse. Misusing your resources?! Oh, the park riders are so victimized! It's not just park riders that can feel as though their resources are being misused: The bump skier wants a dedicated moguls run; but he's hard pressed to see it at many PA resorts, and if he does, it'll be limited to one trail. The guy with fat skis wants a run with fresh machine-made snow; but he can rarely find it in PA, and if he does, it'll be gone in a day. The noob wants that other long cruiser to open up, so he can practice his turns on some different terrain; but it's not open yet, because they're making snow in the park. Improvement is possible everywhere. And complaint is good, because it helps encourage that improvement. But the park is the only place where we continually hear complaint with a sense of entitlement, as if the resort were out to get park riders, or should think of them first, before anyone else. But these park riders need to realize that there are others, on other parts of the mountain, who can feel as though their resources too are being misused. The resort has to do its best to accomodate all of us. It's the egocentrism, not the complaint, that has to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poop Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) off topic kinda, only read half the thread but anyway : just give your money to big boulder if you like park, they actually invest in their own mountian. Edited January 25, 2007 by poop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 And the crushed ice thing. That's just stupid. Are the kids at MIT Snowriders club stupid? http://snowriders.mit.edu/index.php?month=Nov%202006 Yeah its so stupid that Leedom posts a blurb about how it's rider did. Check out Winter X Games rookie and Leedom rider Jonathan Cheever. Although he didn't make it to the finals of the rail jam at Ski Market's Boston location last November 6, he sure put on a great show!How about the fact that there were 9 sponsor tents there for this one "stupid" snow event. I have never seen 9 sponsor tents at CB for anything. The point, here again, is how little snow is needed (watch the video clip) to set up some jibs for the kids. Nips is at the end of this clip http://media.putfile.com/boston-rail-jamma Misusing your resources?! Oh, the park riders are so victimized! But these park riders need to realize that there are others, on other parts of the mountain, who can feel as though their resources too are being misused. The resort has to do its best to accomodate all of us. It's the egocentrism, not the complaint, that has to stop. WOW - try and understand Glenns point. Park rats don't require the amount of snow (resource) as much as the others. Why is that so hard to understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 How about a snow skate park Ben, do you know what snow skates are? Do you know how many kids you can cram into a 1000 sq ft in a snow skate park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 WOW - try and understand Glenns point. Park rats don't require the amount of snow (resource) as much as the others. Why is that so hard to understand? It's not a matter of the availability of the resource. Yes, the park rats feel entitled when the resource is scarce, saying that the park is the best way to utilize minimal snow. But it doesn't end there. The park rats feel entitled when the resource is in abundance, too, forever victimized by the resort. Now, cold weather abounds and snowmaking capacity is high. The resort can point its equipment at any trail. The resources are available to cater to any type of skier. Yet the park rats still complain with a sense of entitlement. Why should the park rats be entitled now, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Ben, I'm not sure how else to put this. I don't feel that park riding is above and beyond other disciplines. I like ripping diamonds, cruisers, bump runs... pretty much anything that a mountain opens. There are certain limitations that are out of the control of management, so I won't complain about those. Things like trail conditions when the temps are swinging above and below freezing violently. Also I understand that resorts (especially CB) wants to cater to a variety of customers so not all trails will be bumped. When I'm talking about misused resources I'm talking about a park crew who has their hands tied, the snow is already on the trail, and the money is already spent for lousy jibs. The mountain is already investing that money in the park, but the money/time/effort is wasted because the management doesn't know how to run a terrain park and will not listen to those who can. You can call names all you want, but it simply weakens your argument. I don't feel entitled to anything, if my only desire was a superior terrain park I wouldn't have a season pass to CB. However no other riding discipline at CB is so awful. They have some great cruisers, the steeps are sufficient, and comparable with other diamonds in the area, and the bumps they had last season were lots of fun. The weather is cold now, and I assume they will continue to blow and get the mountain fully open. To reiterate... even when the snow is scarce as it has been, it is MORE than sufficient to have good setups. The difference between a good setup and a bad one in terms of snow is minuscule. If they trail is open, a jib can be setup well. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WEATHER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspera37 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I see where everyone is coming from but I have to disagree with the you because I don't see how the weather doesn't have everything to do with it. The reason why parks such as breckenridge/mammoth/park city/etc. have such enormous features and all well manicured at that does have a lot to do with the terrain park staff but it also requires a massive amount of snow....massive amounts that the coast range/wasatch/rocky mountains receive. It would take most of the snow at camelback or any pocono resort to create a jump as large as those found out west. It is possible for a jib to be set up with minimal snow, but it almost seems more worth waiting for a bit more snow in order to put something of quality together.....keeping the entire issue of everyone complaining in any scenario aside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 It is possible for a jib to be set up with minimal snow, but it almost seems more worth waiting for a bit more snow in order to put something of quality together. Truly - the weather doesn't have much if anything to do with minimum park set ups. This is where you are really wrong. we don't have 6 months like you do out west. With CB's announcement on their park only pass being open Feb3rd - it will only be open 5 maybe 6 weeks before they close. We went to 6 different rail jams this fall.. why...? The rail jam events get more popular every year. Answer this question. Why would a well promoted Rail Jam be held in a parking lot on Feb 17th and not on a local ski slope with snow? ............ CB is/was supplying the snow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Truly - the weather doesn't have much if anything to do with minimum park set ups. This is where you are really wrong. we don't have 6 months like you do out west. With CB's announcement on their park only pass being open Feb3rd - it will only be open 5 maybe 6 weeks before they close. We went to 6 different rail jams this fall.. why...? The rail jam events get more popular every year. Answer this question. Why would a well promoted Rail Jam be held in a parking lot on Feb 17th and not on a local ski slope with snow? ............ CB is/was supplying the snow.. They are just trying to get a rise out of all the park rats. They will surely learn their lesson when you guys go pro and move out west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Are the ski areas supposed to run out and buy Snowflex for the park when we have a warm winter? Contact Snowflex and find out how many inquiries they have gotten in the last 3 months from our area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librider Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Im going to have to go along with the argument that good setups dont require alot of snow. They have plenty of snow on laurel to make it good. That jump they have setup is worthless though. One night with one snowgun could make that so much better than it is. Also the other thing that bugs us is the mentality that they have. They dont want to push the park to be nice. And the last thing is that Camelback hyped up their park so much, and most of it has been a let down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystrymaster Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 It really is amaizing watching this thread that oh so many people are just missing glenn's point. He is not complaining that CB has not dedicated enough resources to the park he is complaining that they dedicated the wrong resources to the park That is almost like being given a hamburger when you asked for a hot dog and you can see the hamburgers right there. He is not asking for CB to allocate more to the park he is asking CB to allocate correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Ben to put it bluntly - I don't think you can read. Sure the words pass before your eyes, but you can't comprehend anything we're saying. That or you basically hate all the kids in the park and don't actually listen to anything being written here, so when it contracts what you think you just ignore it. So read this post and see if you GET it. First when you talk about people being vocal on here, you are talking about me, you are talking about toast, and glenn, and a bunch of other guys who aren't stupid. I take that somewhat personally - because I feel I'm the farthest from an entitled brat you can get. Toast is at Moravian as you can see in his signature which is a hard college. I'm on an academic full ride to University of Delaware, not sure about Glenn but he obviously is intelligent too. We're not the average idiot in the park (although there are some on here too) - so don't think those guys are on PAskiandride bitching about it. If you think I'm too vocal about this - you should hear me when I care about something dearly (if you listen to the Rush Limbaugh show, watch Fox News Channel, ABC, NBC or CBS - you could have seen or heard me. If you read the Daily Record or the Star Ledger you can read my letters to the editor - so I care about a lot more than snowboarding). If you want to talk about entitlement - I've been working since I could legally and before that, and have bought a car, 5 snowboards & some bindings & boots, 2 sailboats, 2 computers, and all my lift tickets and season passes for the last 5 years. Not sure how many kids work 30+ hours on top of high school, but I'm one of them so believe me I don't feel entitled to anything. Except maybe the scholarships I got after working so fucking hard when everyone around me coasted through high school. So don't think we're vocal because we're whiny brats who don't know how to get what we want. I wanted to go to college for free - and 5 places offered to let me do it. So if you think me complaining about snow being pushed around wrong because I'm used to being handed what I want - it doesn't work that way The point of the matter is - like Glenn and others have said my progression is at a dead end. I skied from age 3-13, including racing and park. Then I switched to snowboarding for the last 5 years. Winter sports for me are just a way of pushing myself and progressing. When you look at the park why would anyone want to hit rails anyway? Sliding on a box is boring! The only outcome is getting to the end or getting hurt. So why do we do it? Because it PUSHES us. At the start even the smallest jumps and rails scared me. I remember the first time I got over a little ride on battleship rail at Mountain Creek after about dozen tries, how it felt to overcome that fear. How it felt to do the big gap on rail there two years ago on Khyber - a huge ollie with potential to break your leg if you came up short. It felt so good to get on top and slide it. So when its 3 or 4 am and I've been working since 9am on a project at school, and I'm exhausted and just want to go to bed, what makes me stay up when the other kids just went to bed? I think back to how I broke my nose that time on a rail and got back up and did it again before I went to the doctor - because I didn't want that rail to beat me. Sure there are guys there just trying to look cool - I hate them too. But I'm there to push myself so I can go to my limits. The difference between those that get ahead and those that are left behind is how hard we push ourselves. I am not a very naturally talented snowboarder - in fact I'm not mostly just persistent and not all that athletic. Stuff comes to other people in half the time it takes me to land it. But I'm out there pushing myself, and then I go home and push myself in my school work. Thats why I'm the only guy from my high school clearing big jumps and big rails, and I'm one of the very few in my college with a 4.0. And all I'm asking is that the mountains help us with our progression a bit. And why do we complain about Camelback doing it wrong when JFBB and Bear and Mountain Creek do it right? Because sometimes I do like to go and ride steeper and longer stuff too, and I like to go with my Dad who introduced me to it all so long ago, and we might go to the park once in a day and I'll show a few of my new tricks and he thinks its cool, but the other 95% of the day we're out riding the regular stuff. But that one time through the park it is more dangerously setup than the much bigger things elsewhere. On the pragmatic side - it doesn't take much snow to do this. I built a 15 foot and a 10 foot rail for my backyard and a drop in box, and if it snowed more than 2 inches I could have a setup. It meant a hell of a lot of shoveling, but it could be done. The ramp for a rail takes about 25 foot diameter circle of snow when its in the 2-4" depth, (of natural snow) and then shoveled together and packed down to be about 4 feet wide, 3 feet long, and 6 inches high on top of the trail. About the same amount of snow as 2 moguls. So don't compare setting up a rail to having an entire mogul field or having a trail open for man made powder for a day, or a long groomer. It is totally different. Generally we are complaining about the way in which they setup the ramps, not the amount of snow used or anything. When the mountain is balancing priorities, it is one thing to pick blowing snow on Marjies versus Rhodo - fine. But when you have a "park" open, the snow has been blown, and it just sucks, that is a problem. The snow is there on the ground, the rails are sitting in the garage, and the park crew is standing there, with their hands tied. Where exactly is the entitlement? When I go up and spend $50 for a lift ticket when I'm making $15 an hour and I get to the park and it sucks - what entitlement is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Ben, I'm not sure how else to put this. I don't feel that park riding is above and beyond other disciplines. I like ripping diamonds, cruisers, bump runs... pretty much anything that a mountain opens. There are certain limitations that are out of the control of management, so I won't complain about those. Things like trail conditions when the temps are swinging above and below freezing violently. Also I understand that resorts (especially CB) wants to cater to a variety of customers so not all trails will be bumped. When I'm talking about misused resources I'm talking about a park crew who has their hands tied, the snow is already on the trail, and the money is already spent for lousy jibs. The mountain is already investing that money in the park, but the money/time/effort is wasted because the management doesn't know how to run a terrain park and will not listen to those who can. You can call names all you want, but it simply weakens your argument. I don't feel entitled to anything, if my only desire was a superior terrain park I wouldn't have a season pass to CB. However no other riding discipline at CB is so awful. They have some great cruisers, the steeps are sufficient, and comparable with other diamonds in the area, and the bumps they had last season were lots of fun. The weather is cold now, and I assume they will continue to blow and get the mountain fully open. To reiterate... even when the snow is scarce as it has been, it is MORE than sufficient to have good setups. The difference between a good setup and a bad one in terms of snow is minuscule. If they trail is open, a jib can be setup well. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WEATHER. Glenn, I understand that you think the park's resources are misallocated, and I appreciate your argument. It's a good criticism, and over time, it should encourage improvement. If you voice yourself persistently, they should hear you eventually, and that seems to be what you're trying to do. And I appreciate that you do that without implying that you're entitled, above everyone else, to what you're asking for. Some new-schoolers don't convey that sense of entitlement, and you seem to be one of them. That attitude should serve as an example to the many park riders who, unfortunately, don't yet follow your lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) And Method (sorry, I just read your post), that applies to you too. I think you misinterpreted me by taking my posts to be gross assumptions about every individual new-schooler; they're not. The group, in general, often acts as though they're entitled to what they're asking for. There are some who don't. If you're one of them that doesn't, hopefully you can convince others to follow you; the sense of entitlement really detracts from your group's character, and hurts your progress. Edited January 25, 2007 by ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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