prijon31 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Anybody any idea how the snow is at elk? I'm plaining on going out tommorow(FRI). I live right next to Sno, however if the conditions are fine I would rather drive to elk. I have not been to elk this year. Any replies appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Anybody any idea how the snow is at elk? I'm plaining on going out tommorow(FRI). I live right next to Sno, however if the conditions are fine I would rather drive to elk. I have not been to elk this year. Any replies appreciated. One of my teammates was there today and said conditions were pretty crappy---all frozen granular, which he expected because of all the rain and wet snow. He said they really needed to blow hard tonight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdaddyk Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 One of my teammates was there today and said conditions were pretty crappy---all frozen granular, which he expected because of all the rain and wet snow. He said they really needed to blow hard tonight... Another day of good grooming should help out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Another day of good grooming should help out. After this year, Elk's claim to fame of best snow/grooming is going the way of the Polaroid company... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I was there yesterday and will be there today and all weekend. Yesterday was crunchy after the ice and rain, but no boilerplate ice. They made snow last night and on the mogul runs and as I look at the mountain, they are blowing as we speak. Not sure what Ski meant about after this year? With the crazy weather this yr, I think conditions have been excellent. They have had 95% of the mountain open all year. They do a great job of grooming and I have even seen them groom trails that are staying open for night skiing at the end of the day to ensure good conditions for night skiing. Hope everyone has a good weekend out there. I know I am. Time to log off and head over to the "Big and Friendly" and carve some turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rummy Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 After this year, Elk's claim to fame of best snow/grooming is going the way of the Polaroid company... How would you Know? How many times have you skied Elk this year? The skiing has been very good throughout most of the year. There have been some weather related bad days at Elk and at Sno too I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moe ghoul Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 How would you Know? How many times have you skied Elk this year? The skiing has been very good throughout most of the year. There have been some weather related bad days at Elk and at Sno too I guess. Maybe Sno makes more snow, otherwise they pretty much get the same weather. My 2 days at Elk were great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Sno has a more powerful system, and it would be nice for ELk to upgrade theirs, which is being planned. However, Sno has to make more snow, the sun exposure of the mountain, especially the upper half is much worse than Elk. Elk holds snow very well because the sun really never hits Elk directly. Sno faces wsw and the sun really nails the upper mtn. Not good for pa skiing. The North Face holds up much better, but elevation is lower than elk. For pa conditions, Elk can't be beat, They groom properly and the Evergreens block the sun and wind and the higher elevation and true north facing exposure helps immensely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prijon31 Posted February 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Thanks everyone for the information. I ended up not going out today. Went to the gym and over did it, my calves are so sore I can barely walk. So maybe Sat. morning before the crowds get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 How would you Know? How many times have you skied Elk this year? The skiing has been very good throughout most of the year. There have been some weather related bad days at Elk and at Sno too I guess. Actually, Sno's NF hasn't had a bad day. Even the 60 degree week a couple of weeks ago was awesome while you guys had closed diamonds from all the grass and rocks popping up. It's all about the snowmaking capacity. Facts instead of hype. Elk has great terrain and the layout of the mountain is terrific. They better start hyping that instead of snow quality. BB's snow quality blows away Elk these days. That's what I meant by the Polaroid comment. Polaroid is down to less than a 100 employees (from 15,000) because they missed the boat on 'instant' digital pictures. And I'm just relaying what a bunch of my friends have been saying. I tend to think they are pretty credible since they are instructors at Sno and Elk and ski both mountains regularly during the week. But there's just no way for Elk to compete with Sno for snow quality. It's just a fact. Sno has a fraction of the skier visits and the comparison between snowmaking systems is like major league baseball versus a high school team. I skied with an Elk instructor on Sunday who said he'd skied Sno 14 days this year and the conditions on the NF have been amazing compared to Elk's diamonds. He added that the upper mountain at Sno was pretty comparable to the conditions of Elk's blues and greens. He said Elk's beginner slopes held up better during the bad weather last week. But I don't go to a mountain for the greens/blues. If Elk cuts other passholders a $10 deal, then I'd def head up. But there's no way I'm blowing $50 on old regroomed snow. Elk needs to drop a million bucks on snowmaking or get rid of their bogus claims, which are a little silly given the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Sno has a more powerful system, and it would be nice for ELk to upgrade theirs, which is being planned. However, Sno has to make more snow, the sun exposure of the mountain, especially the upper half is much worse than Elk. Elk holds snow very well because the sun really never hits Elk directly. Sno faces wsw and the sun really nails the upper mtn. Not good for pa skiing. The North Face holds up much better, but elevation is lower than elk. For pa conditions, Elk can't be beat, They groom properly and the Evergreens block the sun and wind and the higher elevation and true north facing exposure helps immensely. Three out of four nights the NF of Sno is colder than anywhere at Elk because of radiational cooling creating an inversion. The 75% figure comes from how often it's clear versus cloudy. The average base on the NF is 48" compared to Elk's average base on their diamonds being about 20" according to an Elk employee. I'm not arguing. Just facts. No hype. Maybe Sno makes more snow, otherwise they pretty much get the same weather. My 2 days at Elk were great. Elk has great terrain and great fall line skiing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 3 out of 4 nights the NF is colder than 2,600 feet??????????????Meterlogically speaking that is impossible. Temperature inversions do happen when warmer air overides cold air at the surface. I have a friend who lives at the base of Sno and I have been skiing there since the 80's.I always liked the mountain. But I always stayed on the NF, the top is just too easy and straight. And 3 short diamonds gets old fast. Elk does not really need to do much, nor do they want to. If it aint broke don't fix it. They are going to upgrade snowmaking capacity, but they have no problem with lack of snow or poor conditions. I just spent 3 days there and it was wonderful. Conditions were top notch as usual. You can't change terrain. Elk's layout and terrain is hard to beat for pa. Did you really put BB and Elk in the same sentence? I wish Sno all the best, and hope things continue to get better. I also agree that I would not pay to ski at Elk if I had a pass to Sno. Elk is nice, but we are still talking about pa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptDave Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 short diamonds gets old fast. Thats all any PA hill has, Elk included Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 3 out of 4 nights the NF is colder than 2,600 feet??????????????Meterlogically speaking that is impossible. Temperature inversions do happen when warmer air overides cold air at the surface. I have a friend who lives at the base of Sno and I have been skiing there since the 80's.I always liked the mountain. But I always stayed on the NF, the top is just too easy and straight. And 3 short diamonds gets old fast. Elk does not really need to do much, nor do they want to. If it aint broke don't fix it. They are going to upgrade snowmaking capacity, but they have no problem with lack of snow or poor conditions. I just spent 3 days there and it was wonderful. Conditions were top notch as usual. You can't change terrain. Elk's layout and terrain is hard to beat for pa. Did you really put BB and Elk in the same sentence? I wish Sno all the best, and hope things continue to get better. I also agree that I would not pay to ski at Elk if I had a pass to Sno. Elk is nice, but we are still talking about pa! There's temperature inversion three out of four nights during winter. Mountain bases are colder than mountain tops 75% of the time. You may think it's impossible, but it's what the meteorologists have reported since they began recording temps---that probably goes back before the 1980's . You're certainly welcome to believe what you want, but facts are facts---something Elk fans definitely don't want to rely on, or 'guests' will take a closer look at the crap under their skis/boards. I sure don't care. And if skiing the same 20 inches of groomed old snow is "like skiing in Vermont without the drive", then you're pretty easy to please. BB's terrain is terrible, but they have far superior snow to Elk's. And if Elk had just one steep run that was comparable to Denton's or WL, then maybe claims of "hard to beat for PA" would be realistic. Narrow trails with lousy snow are the kind of challenge I look for, but everyone's different. I had a pass there in '99-'00 and skied during the week, while spending every weekend at CB. Weekend morning snow at CB was better than midweek snow at Elk simply because of firepower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Is that why the base of Blue is usually colder than the top early in the morning????? If it's a clear night with light winds, valleys are always colder than mountain tops. It may not always feel like it because of the wind chill, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 can't argue with all pa hills have short diamonds. That is the unfortunate truth, but Elk's fall line terrain is the best in pa. There are no flat spots and it is a joy to ski, but its not vermont or even close. I have skiied all over the world, now I'm 40 with 2 very young kids and pa is really all i can do these days. Thats why i bought a place at Elk. Every turn is a good turn, its all relative. Once the kids get older, I will travel again, but will always call pa home and continue to ski here. Learned at Camelback, Was at Montage, now Sno when it first opened in the mid 80's and used to get up at 4:30 am to get to blue from sj by 7:30 just to ski a few runs before the crowds set in. The older folks on this site can verify that skiing/riding is pa is much better now because of technology than is was 25 yrs ago. The snow guns are better and the grooming cats are much better. Camelback used to be a continuous sheet of ice when i started skiing there. The conditions now are much more enjoyable and the invention of snowboarding/terrain parks allows smaller mountains to compete business wise by building awesome parks to draw the kids/families. I am partial to Elk, but all of the mountains have something to offer depending what your poison is. Skiing and riding is a fantastic sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptDave Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Its a shame they cant stay open into April. Last season they had the snow to do it. Problem is they can't afford to be open past the 100 day guarantee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 but Elk's fall line terrain is the best in pa. I must have missed what trail at Elk has a better fall line than Challenge or Razor's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 I do not want to be a jerk, but this is getting silly, the bottom is colder than the top. Please, my cabin is at 1,200 feet in the valley, I drive up to elk and it is always and i mean almost always 3-5 degrees colder. Valley sometimes trap colder air only when warmer air aloft comes in. I am not trying to be combative, but I minored in meterology in college. Radiational cooling refers to clear skies and light winds, has nothing to do with elevation. Please, no more ridiculous statements. And also to think that Elk has poor conditions is also ignorant. They do a great job, simple as that. This has been proven yr after yr. They don't have the ability to make snow on as many trails as other mountains, that is a fact. But it proves to make no difference. Every yr the conditions are excellent and the mountain holds snow until april every yr. Also Elk receives about 20 inches or more of snow than the Scranton area and most of NE PA. If you don't believe me look it up on NOAA. The reason for this is simply elevation, lake effect, and what is called an orographic lift. Lake effect that comes in from the NW travels over probably 75 miles of rolling terrain in the southern tier of ny and and northern bradford and susquehanna counties in pa. Elk sits at 2,693 feet and the little lake effect moisture that still remains gets squeezed out when it hits Elk. Razors and Challenge are nice trails, but too crowded and very susceptable to wind for some reason. The top always seems to have the powder blown off when a cold front comes through. I always liked blue, nice mountain for pa, but too crowded and gets skiied off quickly. I used to get there at 7:30 am to ski for 2 hours before the crowds. White Lightning is steeper than anything at Elk hands down, but way too short, and too steep for enjoyable bump skiing. Boomer is the best trail at Sno. I always enjoyed it. Cannonball is nice, but not a black diamond. Oh by the way, As I sit her is south jersey at 65 ft elevation, it seems to be colder here than 2,000 feet consistenly, only if there was a hill here it would be great skiing! LOL!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Joint passes would be awesome, who knows maybe it will happen some day. Sno is a great mountain, It is great that the new owners purchased it and are upgrading everything. All mountains have different terrain, amenities and character. It is one thing I always found fascinating about ski resorts. Think about every mountain in ne pa. They are all different in character and customer base. Camelback has condo's, hotels, water parks, etc. JF is kind of all by itself. Elk is in the middle of nowhere with no hotel etc. Sno looks down on a city. I used to enjoy going to different mountains for the chane of pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I do not want to be a jerk, but this is getting silly, the bottom is colder than the top. Please, my cabin is at 1,200 feet in the valley, I drive up to elk and it is always and i mean almost always 3-5 degrees colder. Valley sometimes trap colder air only when warmer air aloft comes in. I am not trying to be combative, but I minored in meterology in college. Radiational cooling refers to clear skies and light winds, has nothing to do with elevation. Please, no more ridiculous statements. And also to think that Elk has poor conditions is also ignorant. They do a great job, simple as that. This has been proven yr after yr. They don't have the ability to make snow on as many trails as other mountains, that is a fact. But it proves to make no difference. Every yr the conditions are excellent and the mountain holds snow until april every yr. Also Elk receives about 20 inches or more of snow than the Scranton area and most of NE PA. If you don't believe me look it up on NOAA. The reason for this is simply elevation, lake effect, and what is called an orographic lift. Lake effect that comes in from the NW travels over probably 75 miles of rolling terrain in the southern tier of ny and and northern bradford and susquehanna counties in pa. Elk sits at 2,693 feet and the little lake effect moisture that still remains gets squeezed out when it hits Elk. Razors and Challenge are nice trails, but too crowded and very susceptable to wind for some reason. The top always seems to have the powder blown off when a cold front comes through. I always liked blue, nice mountain for pa, but too crowded and gets skiied off quickly. I used to get there at 7:30 am to ski for 2 hours before the crowds. White Lightning is steeper than anything at Elk hands down, but way too short, and too steep for enjoyable bump skiing. Boomer is the best trail at Sno. I always enjoyed it. Cannonball is nice, but not a black diamond. Oh by the way, As I sit her is south jersey at 65 ft elevation, it seems to be colder here than 2,000 feet consistenly, only if there was a hill here it would be great skiing! LOL!!!!!!!!! 1. Wow, you'd have been the worst meteorologist ever And, just FYI, we're talking about valleys and the surrounding mountains, not the Jersey shore. Why try to confuse a specific discussion by doing that? My point was a comparison between Sno's North Face area that sits in a valley as opposed to Elk's diamond runs which run off the upper mountain of the ski area. The Jersey Shore? C'mon... "A nocturnal inversion is formed on clear, calm nights from late fall to spring. The ground cools much more rapidly during clear, calm nights than the air above it. The layer of air touching the ground also cools more rapidly than the air above it because the lower air is touching a cooler surface. This cooling effect is enhanced when there is snow on the ground. As the night wears on, this process creates a layer of air where the coolest temperatures are found closest to the surface and the air temperature increases with height. Because the air near the ground often cools to its dewpoint temperature, water vapor in the air condenses into liquid droplets and radiation fog is formed. In northern regions of the US where there is at least partial snow pack, nocturnal inversions occur approximately three out of every four nights in mid-winter and roughly 50% of the time in the early and late winter season. A temperature inversion is created when a stable mass of warmer air lies or sits atop a mass of colder air. This prevents the cold air from rising and mixing with the warmer air. Mountains surrounding a valley or basin act as a rim, much like the sides of a cup or bowl, and prevent the cold air from moving laterally." AMS newsletter 2. It's cool that Elk gets 20" more snow than the city of Scranton over a five month period. Isn't that about 4 inches per month? "Squeezed out"? Sheesh, by the time the lake effect ribbons reach NEPA, "squeezed out" is an appropriate phrase. Do you really think 20 inches spread out over an entire season is somehow comparable to what BB (or Sno) can make in a weekend with it's superior snowmaking? I'd sure take 300 inches of PoleCat snow over PA lake effect dustings any day. 3.Slalom and Susquehanna are diamonds, but you have a problem with Cannonball being a diamond? : 4.Elk used to have great conditions relative to other PA ski areas. With the warming trends of the last decade and Elk's refusal to invest in snowmaking, it has now been surpassed by BB, Seven Springs, and Sno. Both Blue and CB's superior snowmaking would make them better, but they haven't seemed to strike a balance with grooming/snowmaking and the crowds. Stop by CB on a mid-week morning after they've blown and groomed Marjie's and savor the difference over skiing old, regroomed snow. Your myth will be busted. 5.Embrace the future and let go of the past. Elk is the straight ski, rear entry ski hill of NEPA. We all loved our Rossi 4S slalom skis, but they just aren't competitive anymore...start a petition drive for some real snow guns. I'll sign it! Why can't Elk skiers get along with Sno skiers..If they had a joint season pass..it would be sweet for everybody.. We do!!!! I've been skiing with a ton of Elk skiers every Sunday after noon. I wish Elk would return the favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 too steep for enjoyable bump skiing. Eh? I'm a snowboarder, and I dodge the bump trails as much as possible. But if I'm going to punish my body like that, I want to be on the steepest harshest and narrowest bump trail I can get on. In the grand scheme of things, WL isn't that steep. For PA sure, but New England areas have more serious pitches they let bump up, and western resorts clown on that pitch with bumps. Just sayin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdaddyk Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I must have missed what trail at Elk has a better fall line than Challenge or Razor's... Susquehanna is comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierdaddy Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 As the old saying goes, When your the best everyone is trying to knock you off. You can't buy terrain and and the surrounding area. I spent friday, sat and sun at Elk, it was excellent, most of the trails had freshly blwon snow and about 2 inches on friday night. I had friends in from Va who travel to NE pa every yr. They just keep coming back to Elk. Elk has a unique character and the surrounding area gives it a feel that can't be bought. The owners at Elk want to keep it the way it is. If it aint broke, don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkskibum Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Wow, the fighting between people on this thread is kind of amusing, but here is my take: With the temperatures and low snow this winter should have been a complete disaster (and would have been in years past) but really wasn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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