Ski Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 PARA released the final standings for the J4/5 Future Stars State Team...(since PARA and all the race clubs post full names and mountains, it's already public knowledge.) So congrats to the fastest kids from the Keystone state! There are going to be some awesome battles between these kids for years to come. Future Stars State Team GIRLS 1 Horner, Lauren Blue Mtn. 2 Rowland, Kelly Camelback 3 Brackup, Julia Blue Mtn. 4 Harlan, Merritt Camelback 5 Kendall, Creswell Elk Mtn. 6 Joyce, Kailey WPRC BOYS 1 Tindall, Bergen Blue Mtn. 2 Steinbach, Thomas Sno Mtn. 3 Blanchard, Marc Blue Mtn. 4 Connors, Shane Elk Mtn. 5 Hall, Stepper Elk Mtn. 6 Rutledge, Andrew Whitetail 7 De Carle, Mackenzie Tussey Mtn. 8 Field, Robert Whitetail 9 Pyke, Geoffery Blue Mtn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Blue Mountain the True Mountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Where's Rige? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skigurl Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Kelly is an amazing racer, and she put up with alot last yr from the boys who didn't think she could race(but they learned fast) i'm glad to see CB getting on that list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 How do they pick the team.....? Ridge was 3rd fastest in the Eastern Division..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) How do they pick the team.....? Ridge was 3rd fastest in the Eastern Division..... Top 9 boys and top 6 girls at the derbies. He missed it. They start with a clean slate when they go to derbies. Blue Mountain the True Mountain Wow. Blue kids went 6 for 6 in all categories. Edited March 14, 2007 by First Grade Teacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Top 9 boys and top 6 girls at the derbies. He missed it. They start with a clean slate when they go to derbies. Wow. Blue kids went 6 for 6 in all categories. ah ok....that's kinda dumb. their performance based on two days of skiing dicates the best? shouldn't it be the whole season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibhusky Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 ah ok....that's kinda dumb. their performance based on two days of skiing dicates the best? shouldn't it be the whole season? The trouble is, at the J4 and J5 level, they don't compete with "USSA points". The Eastern skiers are in one lot, the Central in another, West in a third and I think there's still a "North East" in a fourth. So, the top skiers of each bunch go to Derbies. The problem is, in a given bunch, they could all be terrific skiers or dull skiers. So, the bunch to bunch comparison only happens at Derbies. And yeah, it's certainly not fair that everything hinges on two days. I remember Siblet was running a fever or something the time she went to Seven Springs for derbies. Actually, when you think of it, it's not even necessarily the "best" skiers of each bunch who go to derbies. I think we'd all agree that consistency over a whole season determines "best", but the system they use only looks at the best placements for individual race days and uses the top 3 or 4 days to tell "best". A kid could theorectically go to derbies who finished dead last or didn't finish at all for every race except the 3 or 4 he needed and he could go to derbies. Once these kids move up to USSA point skiing at the J2 (or here J3) level, they are compared NATIONALLY every time they race due to the complexities (explained in several other posts on this board) of the USSA point system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 How do they pick the team.....? Ridge was 3rd fastest in the Eastern Division..... fastest.............. naa... they combine the SL and GS scores for that standing. Then for the Derbies, they start all over again cummulatively, not best race or anything like that. Ridge didn't have a good weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 The trouble is, at the J4 and J5 level, they don't compete with "USSA points". The Eastern skiers are in one lot, the Central in another, West in a third and I think there's still a "North East" in a fourth. So, the top skiers of each bunch go to Derbies. The problem is, in a given bunch, they could all be terrific skiers or dull skiers. So, the bunch to bunch comparison only happens at Derbies. And yeah, it's certainly not fair that everything hinges on two days. I remember Siblet was running a fever or something the time she went to Seven Springs for derbies. Actually, when you think of it, it's not even necessarily the "best" skiers of each bunch who go to derbies. I think we'd all agree that consistency over a whole season determines "best", but the system they use only looks at the best placements for individual race days and uses the top 3 or 4 days to tell "best". A kid could theorectically go to derbies who finished dead last or didn't finish at all for every race except the 3 or 4 he needed and he could go to derbies. Once these kids move up to USSA point skiing at the J2 (or here J3) level, they are compared NATIONALLY every time they race due to the complexities (explained in several other posts on this board) of the USSA point system. I haven't really thought a lot about this before, but I sort of think it is a fair system. Firstly, you don't want J4/5's travelling too much for races because they miss practice on race days. Secondly, it is not totally unlike the J1/2's, since only seven specific J1/2 races during the season count toward the final standings...it's like the J4/5 Derbies are like a compressed PA Cup Series. And you can't carry points or any sort of standings (except for seedings for start numbers) into a 'tournament' where kids haven't raced head-to-head. If you think about it, Derby is very parochial. It's a chance for kids in their own state to get together and compete and has no other baring except quotas for post season spots. It's the same with PA Cups...I recall some kids skipping Cup races for great point races up north. Just my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I agree the J4/5 race score formats are ok - however I think oveall season cumulative scores would a better indicator for the formation of a State team. Of course I am biased, but in Ridges case, he apparently had a rotten weekend, not sure why, he isn't talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I agree the J4/5 race score formats are ok - however I think oveall season cumulative scores would a better indicator for the formation of a State team. Of course I am biased, but in Ridges case, he apparently had a rotten weekend, not sure why, he isn't talking about it. You can't really use cumulative because all the kids don't race each other at qualifiers. Derbies is the only place 4/5 kids from the entire state race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 You can't really use cumulative because all the kids don't race each other at qualifiers. Derbies is the only place 4/5 kids from the entire state race. Sure they could. Just base it on quotas the same way they do on figuring out how many from each division go to the Derbies. Being new to racing I just sort of equate a state team to like any other sport where season standouts are named to all-stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) THe Derbie results are posted now, Ridge missed the state team (whatever that entitles you to) by one point. http://paracing.org/mambo/index.php?option...5&Itemid=46 BTW edit......................... props to Blue for getting a ton of swag together to hand out for the derbies, I think I heard 20 pairs of skis? !!!!!!!! wonder if there were any twins in there. Edited March 14, 2007 by Papasteeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Sure they could. Just base it on quotas the same way they do on figuring out how many from each division go to the Derbies. Being new to racing I just sort of equate a state team to like any other sport where season standouts are named to all-stars. On the one hand, I totally disagree that state teams should be anything but earned through head-to-heads...however, I think there should be discretionary spots which would def have been used in Ridge's case. Ridge had winning runs and showed he could race with the top kids in his division. But I suppose the lesson learned is the old saying---ski fast and keep your fate in your own hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Sure they could. Just base it on quotas the same way they do on figuring out how many from each division go to the Derbies. Being new to racing I just sort of equate a state team to like any other sport where season standouts are named to all-stars. I disagree. The quota system in PARA is so screwed up to begin with. There were probably 15 girls and 20 boys that shouldn't have even been at derbies. There are plenty of kids that didn't make the derbies due to there divisions quota that would have beaten the bottom 15.(Most of them are from the east) They should be at derbies, not some kid who made it because his division had more slots due to enrollment. I know there needs to be a method for derby selection but there are divisions padding their enrollment by having every kid under 12 join PARA just to help their quota. Then the kid gets his ass kicked by a kid who barely made it. What kind of message does this send all the kids? If you based the State Team on quotas it would make it even more unfair. The only way is for them to race head to head and if you fall or screwup, so be it. This is the only way for the kids to know where they REALLY stand. I think there should be discretionary spots which would def have been used in Ridge's case. Ridge had winning runs and showed he could race with the top kids in his division. There are no discretionary spots. The spots are allocated by USSA for postseason. The only way to get an extra spot is if there is an absolute tie which can't be broken. Ridge was 1 point short. It stinks for him but that's the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 there are divisions padding their enrollment by having every kid under 12 join PARA just to help their quota. Then the kid gets his ass kicked by a kid who barely made it. What kind of message does this send all the kids? If you based the State Team on quotas it would make it even more unfair. The only way is for them to race head to head and if you fall or screwup, so be it. This is the only way for the kids to know where they REALLY stand. Well if what you say is true, then why aren't those divisions penalized or why isn't everyone padding thier enrollment. I do see your point though if that is the way it is. What is the point of the state team anyhow? Is this the way every state appoints thier team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted March 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 There are no discretionary spots. The spots are allocated by USSA for postseason. The only way to get an extra spot is if there is an absolute tie which can't be broken. Ridge was 1 point short. It stinks for him but that's the way it is. The J1/2's had discretionary spots for who made Finals (before Finals were recently opened up to all PARA racers). I believe those spots were filled by the PARA Age Chair off of recommendations by coaches. I'm pretty sure J3's still have discretionaries for Derby, as well. Again, I don't have strong feelings one way or another, although my daughter was a discretionary and ended up jumping 10 spots at Finals to finish in the Top 20. So it seemed to be appropriate, although even she had mixed feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Well if what you say is true, then why aren't those divisions penalized or why isn't everyone padding thier enrollment. I do see your point though if that is the way it is. What is the point of the state team anyhow? Is this the way every state appoints thier team? State Team is the top 9 boys and 6 girls(Basically it's the # of Future Stars spots) State Team varies with each age group. I don't know how other states select for postseason. I think it's up to each state. USSA allocates X number of slots for each state and I think it's up to them how they select. As for the quota thing................Some people are honest and others are not. They really aren't breaking any rules just twisting them. They are only hurting kids, theirs because they get killed at states and others because they don't get a chance to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 The J1/2's had discretionary spots for who made Finals (before Finals were recently opened up to all PARA racers). I believe those spots were filled by the PARA Age Chair off of recommendations by coaches. I'm pretty sure J3's still have discretionaries for Derby, as well. Again, I don't have strong feelings one way or another, although my daughter was a discretionary and ended up jumping 10 spots at Finals to finish in the Top 20. So it seemed to be appropriate, although even she had mixed feelings. There are definitely discretionaries to make it to Derbies. This is the case for all 3 derbies. They are selected by the age chair. I don't think there are any for postseason events. I could be wrong. Many times kids decide not to go to a postseason event and this allows the next lower finisher to go. They usually just go down the list until a kid accepts. Sometimes people refer to these as discretionaries when in fact they are just unfilled spots that would go unused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Just a footnote, I am fairly certain Ridge would have declined any post season races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted March 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 There are definitely discretionaries to make it to Derbies. This is the case for all 3 derbies. They are selected by the age chair. I don't think there are any for postseason events. I could be wrong. Many times kids decide not to go to a postseason event and this allows the next lower finisher to go. They usually just go down the list until a kid accepts. Sometimes people refer to these as discretionaries when in fact they are just unfilled spots that would go unused. You're right. The quotas for leaving the state are set strictly by racer population and how much state reps want to negotiate. They make the kids commit or decline post-season races right after Derby, just so the "next on the list" can accept and make hotel reservations. Nothing discretionary about that. I just meant that deciding what's more of an honor inside the state might have some discretion, but I really don't have an opinion one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Just a footnote, I am fairly certain Ridge would have declined any post season races. He qualified for Piche. He must have declined or you would be going to Gunstock this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 He qualified for Piche. He must have declined or you would be going to Gunstock this weekend. Piche? consolation prize? lol.. nooooo............ The Sno Mountain Race would have been a lot more fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Piche? consolation prize? lol.. nooooo............ The Sno Mountain Race would have been a lot more fun... huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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