method9455 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Response on another forum (alpine zone?) about people complaining about losing all of the south terrain to park and some of the main area to racing. Another response from the creek today, wow this one is a long one. hey, sorry it took so long to get back to you, but we really took your comments to heart and wanted to address everything you wrote about. You have hit on exactly some, if not all, the very questions and concerns that we posed to ourselves when we began surveying how to best manage our growth through this initiative nearly 2 years ago. These changes have been made only after very careful, unprejudiced, quantifiable measure of our customers demographics, habits, critical pinch points, and quite frankly, our need to address some key issues have the largest impact on the greatest number of guests. To your points, we are both blessed, and challenged as a mountain resort in a most unlikely location. Blessed, because at less than 50 miles from New York City, we're easy-to-get-to for a snow fix. Challenged because the mid-Atlantic weather is never reliable. This has been true since Jack Kurlander and Otto Schneibs launched Great Gorge in 1965. In the summer of Intrawest's acquisition, one of the largest one-time installations of modern snowmaking was completed for opening day...and we've continued to invest more than $1million every year since to build the kind of firepower necessary to not only open 175 acres of ragged, rocky, snow-eating topography; but also to nurse these slopes through in inevitable thaw-freeze cycles that blow up the valley from the same New York City and New Jersey harbors that fuel our customer base. There's no question that our trail opening priorities closely follow the pattern of the guests that first arrive en masse...the racers, the 'parkies', and the seasonal beginners that flock like swallows to Capistrano on December 26th. Historically this has meant Bear Peak and getting an initial park up for maximum play in minimal space, while we establish a top-to-bottom beginner route on Horizon. Only then can we go back to serially open additional trails based on providing for the largest segments of our business first. You'll see some shifts this season. For one, Vernon will open first with focus on 'the Backside' intermediate terrain; with South scheduled to follow a week later. A lot has changed in skiing in the 42 years since Great Gorge first opened, much of it in the last decade. The sunny, infectious Warren Miller movies of that era serve as a quaint reminder of the pace, and yes the crowds, that graced the time. Check out Warren's latest films for a startling juxtaposition. Advances in equipment, in lift service, in snowmaking and grooming, and in participant speed and performance have all dramatically influenced our present-day expectations. Whether it's a 16-year-old boy on a snowboard, or a 56-year-old skier...we're all benefiting from the R&D inherent in the spirit of invention largely jump-started by the snowboarding industry. Easier-turning skis, faster skis, safer bindings, and comfortable boots if you can imagine that! The snow...well, that still relies on cold weather even with the latest machinery. (Incidentally, a 1970 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 its sweet that they cared to type such a detailed response.honestly though, i didnt think that many skiers even went to creek besides park rats. the south/bear all park wont last, there will most likely be major revisions to the changes next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted October 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 its sweet that they cared to type such a detailed response.honestly though, i didnt think that many skiers even went to creek besides park rats. the south/bear all park wont last, there will most likely be major revisions to the changes next year. You'd be suprised, about 20 years ago VV/GG was really hot, my dad used to go up all the time when they where talking about building a playboy hotel there. A lot of those guys still go mornings on the weekends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 i remember reading something about the playboy club. wasnt there going to be a tram or something from the club to the mountain as the club was going to be further down in the valley? a playboy club at a ski resort, so jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 That is quite a well written PR piece. I like how "pissed off" was included at one point. hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted October 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 The club is there, the tram was never built. VV/GG also once had GE jet engines to compress air for their snowmaking, it has a crazy history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibhusky Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 It certainly makes them sound like they have more problems than they know how to handle. I wonder how much catering to their "main clientele" has intensified the critical mass of that clientele? That is, the fact that they cater to boarders and park rats, attracts more of those and drives the skiers away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 http://www.skiernet.com/great-gorge.html definitely a crazy history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timeless Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 i am the one who choose my path! i am the one who let it last! i feel the life pulled from me! i feel the anger changing me! less drugs for the little ones please.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 That is, the fact that they cater to boarders and park rats, attracts more of those and drives the skiers away. It has been my observation that parks are attracting more and more skiers. Twin tip ski sales are biggest growth segment of the market, every other segment is either leveled off or declining. Parks are just a part of the ski scene. most spend a portion of thier time in the park, not all of it. Most every park rat when polled would prefer to take powder runs than take a rail run. Most park rats also like to go fast so ripping runs down groomers is fun too. It's apparent more and more so, that parks are a selling point. I don't think ski resorts are speculative in nature, they are reactive. If there is a demand they will build it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted November 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 It has been my observation that parks are attracting more and more skiers. Twin tip ski sales are biggest growth segment of the market, every other segment is either leveled off or declining. Parks are just a part of the ski scene. most spend a portion of thier time in the park, not all of it. Most every park rat when polled would prefer to take powder runs than take a rail run. Most park rats also like to go fast so ripping runs down groomers is fun too. It's apparent more and more so, that parks are a selling point. I don't think ski resorts are speculative in nature, they are reactive. If there is a demand they will build it. Yea but that is GROWTH not total. We sell many more regular skis than we do twin tips, even though the number of twin tip sales on the wall has tripled. It also doesn't mean those people are going to TRY the park, they just like the gear. On the snowboard side, half the boards are park boards or "can be used in the park" boards but only about 10% of the girls and 30% of the guys coming say they ride park. There are a lot of people around here who WISH they could ride park, so they buy the gear for that "someday", but in reality with such a short season not very many people become good at it. I'm not sure betting your whole mountain on it works for Mountain Creek. It is one thing to stand out in that area, but this might be too much. It works for Boulder because they still have JF for free riding, and because they have a lot of immediate competition that has more acreage, so they have to differentiate somehow. MC doesn't have any local competition, aside from the PA mountains but a lot of people see those as "too far" so we'll see how it pans out. I think a better balance is to do what they've done to vernon, possibly less racing area there - they only seemed to have one racing trail before why do they need 2? Make south a park, leave bear as all free ride. Its a minor shift, but now no matter what base you park at there is free riding and park (counting the superpipe at Vernon) and it would require less snow since you are only buildling features on one peak instead of two. And seroiusly, we know they aren't going to be 100% open, with 100% of the park open - until the 2nd to last week, so why not just make Bear say free ride and open south 100% so as not to start the season by alienating so many people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSkiBabe Posted December 30, 2007 Report Share Posted December 30, 2007 The club is there, the tram was never built. VV/GG also once had GE jet engines to compress air for their snowmaking, it has a crazy history. They were not GE jet engines. The jet engines were made by Curtiss-Wright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 You'd be suprised, about 20 years ago VV/GG was really hot, my dad used to go up all the time when they where talking about building a playboy hotel there. A lot of those guys still go mornings on the weekends. I sort of liked the Playboy Hotel...my grandfather had a membership "key" back in the late 70's. Big boobies, fishnet stockings, and bunny tails...and we skied a little, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 It certainly makes them sound like they have more problems than they know how to handle. I wonder how much catering to their "main clientele" has intensified the critical mass of that clientele? That is, the fact that they cater to boarders and park rats, attracts more of those and drives the skiers away. Yeah, it does sound like they are having a really tough time. That came off as a mia culpa letter. And of course they've chased away non-park skiers. They have more police calls at MC than any Pocono ski area by far, which upper middle class folks just don't want to be around. I have friend who works there who had her car broken into three times last winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Yeah, it does sound like they are having a really tough time. That came off as a mia culpa letter. And of course they've chased away non-park skiers. They have more police calls at MC than any Pocono ski area by far, which upper middle class folks just don't want to be around. I have friend who works there who had her car broken into three times last winter. Boards get stolen all the time, I have no comparison at other mountains because I only ride with my crew when I go to PA and we don't put our boards down, but on high school ski club trips to MC we would usually have 3-4 boards stolen over the course of the year, out of about 100 people going up for 6 trips. It seemed really high to me. Personally I have a lock but most of the time I never let go of my gear. Hit the bathroom beforehand they don't care if you bring gear in that is dry, ride all night, and then someone watch it outside while we grabbed food for the bus home. Never had a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 (edited) just my two cents- keeping the park rats at south, and opening up vernon and granite dirtball free is a good idea. ive been there to see the effects. they just need to cut some more trails on granite for the core freeriders. and why people do not use the free board check is beyond me. Edited January 2, 2008 by vincent vega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 and why people do not use the free board check is beyond me. Its new for this year. As for moving all the park riders to south, I always though South was over rated for free riding anyway. You have decent pitch for a blue square up top, then it flattens out to a crawl, and then it is blue again. No matter what they rated it, thats what it was. Bear was good but it was always closed for racing when I was there. So they didn't lose much, and you gain 3 blues on Vernon - and the reality is most of the people who go to Mountain Creek are blue skiers at best. It should get the load off Horizon, and make Vernon kind of the beginner/intermediate area, Granite the advanced area, and South/Bear the park area. It makes a lot of sense despite the grumbling. The only one who gets really screwed are those who liked the blacks on bear - but the reality is the hardcore skier makes up a much much smaller segment of the population there than park rats, while the intermediate crowd is the bulk of their crowd. Most of the hardcore skiers have season passes and go for 3-4 hours in the morning on the weekends before the crowds show up, I think you could still hit bear before the crowds show up anyway. Its funny to look at the trail map now though, it looks a lot smaller than it used to be, if you lop south/bear off and look at how many trails are left on Vernon and Granite it looks pretty weak, I guess it is just psychological. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiUtah Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I had the opportunity to work for Jack Kurlander in the group sales/marketing department. It was the 74-75 ski season and the first year VV/GG operated together. It was the most interesting job I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I had the opportunity to work for Jack Kurlander in the group sales/marketing department. It was the 74-75 ski season and the first year VV/GG operated together. It was the most interesting job I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiUtah Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 True true true. I can't believe they can sell their real estate though when the mountain blows so hard. How would you feel about buying a ski in ski out on Granite if you knew that eventually they would not even start making snow near your house until January each year. I guess its all about the Applachian now. Great view of the bunny hill and a circus tent from your window! That will be $600k please. I believe it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 I believe it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySkisBig Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Mountain Creek just plain BLOWS CHUNKS!!! Yes, the author of the letter penned a great response. Too bad the foresight to ski resort operations is not nearly as good as their ability to write. Why in the world would they force skiers that do not want to ride park to take that distgusting Cabriolet? Seriously, that is what it boils down to. The Cab is good for moving people in parking lots and that is EXACTLY where that THING should go. They have a parking problem and issues with getting people up the mountain in a safe manner. YES, the cab is not safe. READ AGAIN... The cab is not safe. ~For skiers in hard shell boots, the metal grid floor is very slippery. (Leading to injuries.) ~Having to walk in ski boots wears them out faster then skiing and binding-mount chewing can cause a prerelease on the mountain. (Leading to injuries.) ~The lack of rest received while standing on the cab and the additional exhertion needed to stand may be unknown to people not familiar with this style of stupid people-mover. (Leading to injuries.) Maybe it will take a lawsuit for Mountain Crack for them to see the light and get rid of the foolish thing. Why don't they use the cab to help resolve the parking issue? It only makes sense. That is what this thing was originally designed for; two rides a day. Once from your car and another to your car. We weren't to be corralled onto it all day long. I think what happened was that management was steered into this by an overzealous marketing team who thought it would be 'cool' to have the only stand-up gondola used in their marketing materials. DUMB DUMB DUMB. Since it would be too expensive of a mistake just to trash the cab, create a better base parking lot and use it to shuttle people to and from the main lodge. The main lodge... Ugh. Their temporary lodging fix is now eight years old. Eight years, unless we are talking about the creation of our solar system, sounds rather permanent to me. As far as the author of the MC response letter referring to the old lodge as a clattertrap and the bubble tents as festive; what world does he/she live on? A wood lodge is the essence of skiing compared to a tent (unless of course we are backpack skiing Tuckerman's Ravine). Should I let my mind wander in free thought or brainstorming exercises, I would think.... tent equals circus and every circus needs at least one clown. Hmmmmm. The perfect clown for the Mountain Crack Circus would be Ronald McDonald... Yes, that's it. Bring a McDonalds to the MC tent and it would almost be perfect. I am only kidding of course, but in Mountain Crack logic it is a perfect fit. Is the Mountain Crack Team kidding me? Cmon now. Using a reference to any Warren Miller film when trying to justify the issues of Mountain Crack is absurd. Yes, the 'old films' (as the MC Team put it) did have folks many a times... "walking from the car through gravel and mud, frozen or soup-like, with a shoulder full of gear..." but, as far as I know, Warren Miller never shot any scenes on this 'mountain.' Let's face it. I hike Tuckermans to ski its legendary terrain. Would I hike the same to ski a typical run at MC? NO! Let's get back to reality here. MC is a ski area of convenience or more appropriately SHOULD BE a ski area of convenience. Nobody ever talks about MC as great terrain. Nobody ever talks about MC as great stashes of pillow like pow. Nobody ever... you get the point. MC is what it is and they need to realize this. Too bad they cannot connect their own dots. They market themselves as 50 miles from NYC. What is this? Convenience!!! How convenient is their parking? It's not. How convenient is their lift system? It's not. How well-planned is their lodge? It's not. How convenient is MC on the whole? (Until they make some well needed changes) It's not. Do I ski MC? Not any more. I did and quite often. As a matter of fact, I did hold season passes for MANY years. I had season passes even after they trashed the place and put up the cabriolet, but now with their hotel taking the place of parking which only compounds their issues, I gave up on them for a season pass purchase. And now with them turning the only high-speed chairlift serviced terrain into a huge park, they won't even get my day pass dollars. SHAME ON YOU Mountain Crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 It wasn't long ago that MC had built the rep of 'second only to Stratton' for pipes and terrain park. And they fell in love with that imagine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaySkisBig Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 I think a better balance is to do what they've done to vernon, possibly less racing area there - they only seemed to have one racing trail before why do they need 2? ........., so why not just make Bear say free ride and open south 100% so as not to start the season by alienating so many people. What is wrong with having two racing runs for people that want to challenge themselves at the Vernon side of Mountain Creek? The 'parkies' have the entire side of the mountain to do as they wish loaded with rails, boxes, hits and jumps that are designed primarily for riders and not skiers. (Yes, skiers can use the park too, but when designed were designed for boarders predominantly). Before this blows up... Skiers as opposed to boarders generally like a hit with more of a lip as opposed to the common board hit that have flat runoffs. As far as 'alienationg so many people," isn't that exactly what you are doing by complaining that 2 of the 46 total trails were used for racing? Only TWO from a total of FORTY-SIX. Cmon Method, try to share the mountain..... Ohhhhh you are soo not going to like this... If it were up to me, I'd add a hand groomed bumprun for skiers and skiers only. Boarders and skiers use the snow differently in regard to their appropriate style of getting down the hill. For the most part, boards and bumps don't mix. Boards KILL bumpruns. Since so much money and man hours at Mountain Crack are spent making the parkrats happy, how about giving back a little, just a little for those on twin-sticks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 What is wrong with having two racing runs for people that want to challenge themselves at the Vernon side of Mountain Creek? The 'parkies' have the entire side of the mountain to do as they wish loaded with rails, boxes, hits and jumps that are designed primarily for riders and not skiers. (Yes, skiers can use the park too, but when designed were designed for boarders predominantly). Before this blows up... Skiers as opposed to boarders generally like a hit with more of a lip as opposed to the common board hit that have flat runoffs. As far as 'alienationg so many people," isn't that exactly what you are doing by complaining that 2 of the 46 total trails were used for racing? Only TWO from a total of FORTY-SIX. Cmon Method, try to share the mountain..... Ohhhhh you are soo not going to like this... If it were up to me, I'd add a hand groomed bumprun for skiers and skiers only. Boarders and skiers use the snow differently in regard to their appropriate style of getting down the hill. For the most part, boards and bumps don't mix. Boards KILL bumpruns. Since so much money and man hours at Mountain Crack are spent making the parkrats happy, how about giving back a little, just a little for those on twin-sticks? Bear Peak was an awesome race arena, with a great, wide fall line GS slope and then the ability to set up a slalom to skiers left. And they threw it away. Oh, well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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