Ski Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 You race at that f*cking kiddy length Beer Creek course, yet have to comment on Montage? You weren't at Montage and haven't skied Montage NASTAR and don't know how the course speeds up. Those f*ckheads at the NASTAR MB had to listen to YOUR request to use a recalculated pace time. They took YOUR complaint and HQ changed the pace time to when the pacesetter ran on the fastest track. NOW EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MEDALS. It's not fair that the course speeds up, but that's NATURE. It's an outdoor sport. It's even MORE unfair that the pacesetter just happens to get in his speed suit and rip down the course when it's at it's peak speed. Right after he goes in his speed suit, they allow the race tream trashes the course for an hour. F you and F JT Bear and Gary for that shit. Why don't you guys start sending out emails so everyone can turn in their meaningless medals. It was supposed to be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkSnow Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Wow, ok... I think I got the jist of it, but who is this directed at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 'Dude. I assume he was p*ssed at Montage that Atomic was fast, so time to take it out on our program? Montage does it right. Bear Creek is a joke. Montage goes by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poconoceancity Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 'Dude. I assume he was p*ssed at Montage that Atomic was fast, so time to take it out on our program? Montage does it right. Bear Creek is a joke. Montage goes by the rules. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Skidude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 http://www.nastar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=610 I'll be back in a few days when I'm not so pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Just a side note, I'm ranked #2 at Montage for the intermediate division I guess one of the kids is now in the expert divison....I have to get back up there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibhusky Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) http://www.nastar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=610I'll be back in a few days when I'm not so pissed off. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The link seemed to be to a rational discussion. It did not mention a particular resort until YOU told them. It sounds like if they didn't set up a "new race" then it's against the original pace time. Edited February 22, 2005 by sibhusky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 The link seemed to be to a rational discussion. It did not mention a particular resort until YOU told them. It sounds like if they didn't set up a "new race" then it's against the original pace time. EXACTLY! It was not a new race, it was the same race, but Adam convinced them to change the pacesetters time to the later time, where he had a speed suit on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidude Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Jeeze dude chill out. I haven't looked at what they did, but mearly posted a question. It was an honest question. I can't control what happened, or what they did. Here is the question. Do you like running Nastar? Did you have fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Jeeze dude chill out. I haven't looked at what they did, but mearly posted a question. It was an honest question. I can't control what happened, or what they did. Here is the question. Do you like running Nastar? Did you have fun? Did I enjoy running nastar? Yes. Did I have fun? Yes. Did i enjoy getting in skidude's head? You better believe it. Would I like it if my 16HC turned into a 19? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidude Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Jeff does it matter to you? If it matters so much GO OUT AND DO IT AGAIN. You want something, you have to work at it. I know that a certain someone (who is 4 years old and will remain nameless) will be out there again, working her butt off to get another medal. And my bet is she will keep working, until she gets a gold, and even then, she will probably keep working at ski racing if she likes it. Jeff, are you strong enough to get out there and do it again? I know she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidude Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Also I am not going to get in a flame war with you guys, but I NEVER said anything about ANY resort.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) Would I like it if my 16HC turned into a 19? No. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's happened to me twice, and I was PO'ed both times. Once was at CB, after earning my first (and only) gold there - they recalculated the pace time at NASTAR headquarters and it converted to a silver by 0.04 seconds. I have no idea why. The second time was at Park City - My goal was to get a silver - I did so on my first run, so I quit. They later repaced and I lost that one too. It's really irritating. Edited February 22, 2005 by skimom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Jeff does it matter to you? If it matters so much GO OUT AND DO IT AGAIN. You want something, you have to work at it. I know that a certain someone (who is 4 years old and will remain nameless) will be out there again, working her butt off to get another medal. And my bet is she will keep working, until she gets a gold, and even then, she will probably keep working at ski racing if she likes it.Jeff, are you strong enough to get out there and do it again? I know she is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree!! - I have done my best to explain how the rankings work at Nastar to my son and I have explained to not worry about the "system" and the odd or suspicious results. He will get his chance to ski head to head.. Matter of fact, we chased the kids that were ranked higher in PA and wouldn't you know it? They weren't there. The cool thing about Nastar is that it tracks your results - so if you race enough you can see the improvement.. Ski999's girl earned her medal that day - my suggestion is to not worry about the handcap system, to ski as much as you can within Nastar and watch the overall improvements.. At 4 years old "you" will notice the improvement through out the season (on the average) - I questioned Nastar hard - the medals are a small bonus... I know they mean alot to a kid.. Don't take that away!!! She earned that medal on that day fair and square.... forget the handicap system and the way it works!!! http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=r...16893&year=2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 I agree!! - I have done my best to explain how the rankings work at Nastar to my son and I have explained to not worry about the "system" and the odd or suspicious results. He will get his chance to ski head to head.. Matter of fact, we chased the kids that were ranked higher in PA and wouldn't you know it? They weren't there. The cool thing about Nastar is that it tracks your results - so if you race enough you can see the improvement.. Ski999's girl earned her medal that day - my suggestion is to not worry about the handcap system, to ski as much as you can within Nastar and watch the overall improvements.. At 4 years old "you" will notice the improvement through out the season (on the average) - I questioned Nastar hard - the medals are a small bonus... I know they mean alot to a kid.. Don't take that away!!! She earned that medal on that day fair and square.... forget the handicap system and the way it works!!! http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=r...16893&year=2005 I qualified too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 I qualified too <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are you going to PC??? I am trying to find all of the Eastern PA people I can - I don't know if it is possible, it might be underhanded, IDK.. But I think it would be cool if we formed a team with the people from the Pocono area that are going to PC - How the hey do we send a message to all of the qualifiers in this area???? Any ideas?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 rlarick: You can access the list of qualifiers for each ski area, if you really want to track people down. There is a CB crew going, and we usually get together at some point to do a few runs or have a meal. I'd consider a regional meet, if you have the energy to organize it. The NASTAR handicap system isn't necessarily reflective on a given day, but over time it mostly works. Agree that you need to follow your handicap over time, and race face-to-face when in doubt. Signed, The Silver Queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 The NASTAR HC system doesn't work. It failed completely when one rule was changed and another rule was made to apply only for some races and some racers. Our pacesetter runs first and sets the par time. Each racer then gets to know his HC and medal as he crosses the finish line. Our pacesetter (like CB's Brad Sweeney) often takes a later run. There are numerous reasons for the later run: for fun; to check how the course is holding up, etc... According to NASTAR rules, the pacesetter isn't supposed to be repacing during the day. It's not fair that medals be taken away or changed and it's not convenient for people to have to return at the end of the day to check their results. But then our mountain is pointed out as being some sort of cheat. That we aren't going by the rules. That our pacesetter's time speeds up later, so that later time should be used to set the par time. Under this method, every race at our mountain needs recalculation, because you either have a rule or you don't. The one race that was pointed out was quickly recalculated and a message on the page has this note: "This race has been recalculated because the pacesetter did not use his fastest time." All the kids that "earned" bronze medals now have meaningless medals. That's the rule of sport: you don't keep a medal or trophy you didn't earn fair and square. I think we learned that in kindergarden. Well, guess who has a faulty state ranking then? State rankings are based on a racer's second best HC. On the day this person laid down a blistering 11.88 HC, guess what pacesetter didn't use his best time to calculate the par time? Wouldn't be those folks at Bear Creek, would it? Oh, and by the way, as long as we're puting "fun, recreational ski racing" under the microscope, let's look at Bear Creek for just a moment: http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=r...38242&year=2005 Hmmm....the pacesetter didn't use his fastest time to calculate the par time. I wonder if that unfairly throws off anyone's state ranking HC? ______________ Rlarick, after being involved in NASTAR since the early-80's, I was really offended by selective rule changing. We teach kids boundaries by setting rules. I've coached youth soccer for years and have quite a bit of experience with the importance of rules even in the most casual, recreational atmosphere. Even hop-scotch gets all screwed up without consistant rules. As a U6 soccer coach, I don't give out "participation" trophies at the end of the season. Every kid gets a trophy for the skill they were best at, even if it's "most improved" or "most potential". Showing up is easy; being "best defender" is earned. When a kid works hard, follows the rules, and reaches a goal, it is a dangerous thing to then change a rule and take away their 'prize'. Think about what that has taught them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 rlarick:You can access the list of qualifiers for each ski area, if you really want to track people down. There is a CB crew going, and we usually get together at some point to do a few runs or have a meal. I'd consider a regional meet, if you have the energy to organize it. The NASTAR handicap system isn't necessarily reflective on a given day, but over time it mostly works. Agree that you need to follow your handicap over time, and race face-to-face when in doubt. Signed, The Silver Queen <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Consider Ridge included with the CB team!! I changed his Nastar profile to reflect that . - I will see what I can do to persuade others to join... I wonder what would prevent a Pocono Resort Team from being created.. Face it.. all of our mountains combined don't equal the size of some of the resorts in the West.. Hmmmmm got an idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 All the kids that "earned" bronze medals now have meaningless medals. That's the rule of sport: you don't keep a medal or trophy you didn't earn fair and square. I think we learned that in kindergarden. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with everything you have said... I just still think that she earned that medal fair and square on that day.. No one should take it away nor should you consider it worthless.. I am sure that she gave it all she had and if I had any say in it she won the gold!!! On the other hand - I only recently realized that if Ridge truly wants to race competitively (and earn medals) then we have to join The USSA PARA PASR NASTAR ISSA ASRA ACB 123 ABC otherwise, he can just have fun, with the challenge of running the gates at the Nastar courses and hear his times improve (or not) during 10 or so races one afternoon.. He mentioned to me that it was boring waiting in line for so long for dual slalom at CB on Sunday - he also said that he had more fun in the afternoon as he got to know the other members better... I do not agree with changing the pacesetter times after the race has begun.. I also know that everyone can't be pleased all the time and that there are going to be Bluebird days and others when you can't get past bronze.. I suggested to Nastar that they might consider a more stringent averaging in the Expert category only.. Since the expert category is where the more serious competitors are.. The other divisions should be for fun.. Once the rules - pace are set they should be set.. I agree.. Now relax!!! Take your kid skiing!!! I had my kids skiing at that age and now I am really appreciating the time and money spent... Hang in there hope to see you out there again soon! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Posted February 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Ridge will just be in the PARA region of USSA. No time for anything else. By the time he's a J3, NASTAR courses will only be useful if he needs to work on some basics, since they are neither steep enough or off-set enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicSkier Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 I was dinkin about it, and let me compare it to golf: When you start the day, the course is of course, a Par 72. As the sun comes out, the greens dry out and the wind picks up. Just because two uncontrollable forces of nature happened to occur, doesn't mean the par of the course changes. It can be pooring rain, with 100 mph winds, and that same course is a Par 72, regardless of how conditions change. Let's apply that to NASTAR. He pacesets the course when nobody else has run it. In theory, that is the fastest time he could achieve on that newly set course. Let's say Tiger shoots a 72 in the morning in ideal condition. It does not mean, he couldn't come back, later that day, and shoot a 69. He IS the best in the world (well V-jay is offically). Just because the pace setter (in theory, a slower version of Rahlves) skis a slower time when the course is fresh, doesn't mean that's the fastest he'll ever ski the course, it is the fastest time he can ski the course, in THOSE conditions. It is the way it is done at every resort. The pacesetter runs first, and that's it. The greens may firm up, and the race course peaks, some people just do better in different conditions. You can not try to overcome nature. Sh*t happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) I do not agree with changing the pacesetter times after the race has begun.. Edited February 22, 2005 by skimom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Having personally been on both sides of this issue, I'd argue that if conditions change significantly the course should be repaced. However, only times from that point on should reflect the repacing. Rob - The more serious racers are not necessarily limited to the expert category. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My mistake sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimom Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Some of us just have slow improvement curves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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