GNU_rider Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Well last year late season what they did for "reserve snow" was building big features off to the sides of the parks like the hips they had on the left and right of cascade one of the park crew guys told me that's why they made them, I think that would be a better way of having that extra snow more features keeping the snow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timeless Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Could the management of BC.... PLEASE BUY CAMELBACK your attitude and public interface are simply a million times better than we see from CB, but you do seem to be somewhat screwed over by your location. I the CB reps read this topic, please take notes on the approach of BC, if blue or JFBB were this interactive and honest my season passes would go there next year, unfortunately BC is just too far for me. I wonder what the equivalent system capacity relative to the hill acreage is for the other mountains? Any reps care to comment or claim? The whole mountain open in 80 hours at 28F seem to be an excellent bench mark, how many acres is that? I think this is worth another thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Mark Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 I am going to try and address as many comments as I can. I apologize in advance for jumping around. First, let me say how great it is to have an incorrect forecast in our favor! We were expecting a low of 30F last night and got 27F with 67% humidity and a wetbulb of 24.3F! The last time we saw a wetbulb that low was Dec. 8 and 9 when we made all the snow that got us open! Let's hope tonight and tomorrow at least hold true to the forecast! Currently we make snow on 61 acres with 93 guns. The guns we use are recommended to cover .75 to 1.5 acres each. We average .65 acres per gun. While this helps us lay down the snow when we get conditions it really puts the pressure on our snowmakers to be attentive. At that kind of density, particularly in areas where we have no wind-breaks, like the lower Kodiak/lower Black Bear/Half Pipe area, the guns tend to create their own microclimate and begin sucking the plumes into their fans. This creates a giant snow waffle on the fan covers that dramatically reduces air flow through the barrell. The snowmakers have to knock those off constantly to avoid decreasing productivity and have to reaim the guns for the constantly swirling winds created by so much air movement in a small area. 80 hours is definitely doable for opening 90% of the terrain with 28F wetbulb with the current system, we have proven that in previous years. The issue this year is we have only had a total of 70 hours of snowmaking (prior to last night) and only 25 to 30 of those hours were 28F wetbulb or below. The rest of the time was wishful thinking and anticipating temperature drops that never arrived or having unanticipated humidity spikes. Now we have a new "worst case scenario" that has caused us to rethink our goals and we now want to aim for 40 hours. As for prolonging the season, we typically push for the third weekend in March. Last year we made snow into March with the idea of keeping terrain park areas open into April. We knew that the longer days and warmer temps would be an issue so we stockpiled what we thought was adequate snow. We were wrong and the rainstorm that arrived prior to our last weekend did more damage that we would have thought possible. Given that this year is off to such a slow start, we are going to push to make the season as long as possible. Using a hyrdostatic pump is a possibility to feed a potential mountain top pond. It would be a good supplement if all our power was tied up in snowmaking. During non-snowmaking periods we would have more than enough electric to use an electric pump. I like the idea of having a switchable coupling that would allow multiple power/drive sources. If we needed to add generation for the new pump house, we would put the generator on the far side of the pumphouse that is to be located on the earth berm at the end of the large pond. Generators in that class come with a good degree of noise attenuation and the distance from any public areas would make the noise nearly imperceptable and the building would shield the generator from view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 I say bear looks into investing in some snow flex so we could ride allll year round.... do you know how many people you could bring in????? a whooollllleeeeee lot. think about all the kids that go to camps around here during the summer spending 3000 dollars each and then think about if just all that money was going to bear creek????? good idea??? i think so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kragan Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 WOW! I have to say that this is one of the best threads that I have ever read on this MB. Mark, you have done an amazing job of answering everyone's questions and responding to comments and suggestions in an extremely professional manner. It seems that you and BC are doing everything within your power to get the mountain open, and beyond that, learning what you can from these poor conditions. I believe that the entire PASR community and staff appreciates the effort that you have port forth in keeping us all informed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 WOW! I have to say that this is one of the best threads that I have ever read on this MB. Mark, you have done an amazing job of answering everyone's questions and responding to comments and suggestions in an extremely professional manner. It seems that you and BC are doing everything within your power to get the mountain open, and beyond that, learning what you can from these poor conditions. I believe that the entire PASR community and staff appreciates the effort that you have port forth in keeping us all informed! x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyro_boarder Posted January 9, 2007 Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Solar power is a good option to reduce energy costs, but the potential is in solar thermal, rather than photovoltaic power. Thermal power is more efficient than solar cells so there is less of a loss. If BC were to use solar water heaters for heat or hot water for the hotel there is potential to save electricity or energy that could be used for other purposes. I also wanted to say that the involvement of Bear Creek's management on the message board and there responsiveness to their customers in general is really great. It would be nice to see other mountains with such commitment to they customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2007 Thanks Mark, the info is greatly appreciated, especially at a time when we're all dieing from lack of skiing and riding. At least we have something to talk about. Interesting about the gun microclimates, is there a way around this? Are tripod guns unaffected by overpopulation? (This explains why there are only 4 fan guns on the Superpipe at Mountain Creek, with 4 on the trail above and then they push the snow down into the pipe with a snowcat.) The snowflex is an idea, if one place opened one trail of it with a few jibs, they would have riders coming all year long. At some point it has to become economically viable, especially since you can just blow snow on top of it, and if it melts instead of muddy spots you have ridable surface in some places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever2003 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Killington has a bunch of generators down at their Snowshed base. I don't remember seeing them before but I'm sure they've had them in the past. I didn't realize you guys sucked up all the power available down there. I snapped this pic from the side of the Snowshed Slope on Friday at Killington. I couldn't decide if these were air compressors or generators. (Link for full size after image) http://steve.wister.org/photos/albums/2007...070105_0323.jpg I learned about the Muddy Run pumped storage facility when I worked at PECO Energy last year, but boblikescats beat me to posting about it. The pumped storage system is actually the most efficient and cost effective method of energy storage. Exelon uses this facility to meet peak demand loads during the day by letting water flow through a turbine into a reservoir at a lower elevation. At night, when loads are lighter, the turbine is used as a motor and pumps the water back to the reservoir at higher elevation. Batteries turn out to be extremely inefficient and costly. Check out the link that Bob posted, it's pretty neat to see the details on a facility like this. Mark, I think installing the wind turbine is a great idea, if it is feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Those are diesel powered compressors. I know that Camelback once rented a bunch of extra air compressors like that. Maybe one option for Bear Creek would be to make plug ins on the air lines for external compressors. In a bad year like this, they could rent a dozen of those and plug them in for a month for extra air capacity so they can make more snow in marginal temperatures, then return them. They would stick with the 80 hour plan first, and if the yera was bad, switch to the 40 hour plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Mark Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 The pumped storage facility is a very clever idea for solving peak demand issues. I will talk to our engineers and see what electric potetial there is for a mountain top pond. Method is right, those are portable compressors. A lot of mountains that use air/water systems bring in rental air to get through the opening push then use their owned compressors to maintain the slopes. Bear Creek is an airless sytem so we have no need for compressors. Rental generation is a possibility for adding additional pumping capacity for our opening push then running only 4 pumps to maintain the base. The big issue in the mid-atlantic is we are very prone to mid season thaws. To recover from the thaw we need all the capacity we can get so we would likely purchase a generator so we have it whenever needed. We have gotten decent production that last two night and are going to try and hold through the day today. Tonight should be great. Let's keep our fingers crossed that we can get something open for the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Could the management of BC.... PLEASE BUY CAMELBACK your attitude and public interface are simply a million times better than we see from CB, but you do seem to be somewhat screwed over by your location. HAHAHAAAAAAAA word............ I beat you too it dude.. I told him last year, in person, that the first thing I would do if I owned CB, was hire him.. LOL!!!! x2 x10!! sorry.... I had to chime in.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YummerzZz Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Thanks Mark, the info is greatly appreciated, especially at a time when we're all dieing from lack of skiing and riding. At least we have something to talk about. Interesting about the gun microclimates, is there a way around this? Are tripod guns unaffected by overpopulation? (This explains why there are only 4 fan guns on the Superpipe at Mountain Creek, with 4 on the trail above and then they push the snow down into the pipe with a snowcat.) The snowflex is an idea, if one place opened one trail of it with a few jibs, they would have riders coming all year long. At some point it has to become economically viable, especially since you can just blow snow on top of it, and if it melts instead of muddy spots you have ridable surface in some places. Method9455,after watching fan gun's operate numerous hour's,I recognized this problem with the gun intake icing from another area I mess with....drag racing! http://www.billzilla.org/engineintro.htm ,if you scroll down look at the picture of his ITB trumpet's.Notice the plate that surround's the trumpet's.Most of the air entering into the gun is NOT from the rear,it curl's around from the side's/front.If you fabbed up a plate for a fangun like this I bet you would solve most of the icing problem,along with greatly improving gun performance.Although I never got to try this out at the last place I worked,gee wonder why???Mark,the pumped storage idea was what I was alluding to in a prior post too,it is a excellent idea.It is nice to know that BC is in such good hand's along with being customer-minded/employee-minded/open-minded/enviromentally-minded!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmudrick Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 As for prolonging the season, we typically push for the third weekend in March. Last year we made snow into March with the idea of keeping terrain park areas open into April. We knew that the longer days and warmer temps would be an issue so we stockpiled what we thought was adequate snow. We were wrong and the rainstorm that arrived prior to our last weekend did more damage that we would have thought possible. Given that this year is off to such a slow start, we are going to push to make the season as long as possible. Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyIT Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 BC-Mark talks the talk but in the end Bear Creek doesn't walk the walk... Great comment when you have no basis of understanding exactly what goes in running a resort. You would be hard pressed to find another GM around here that could come even close to Mark's commitment to this resort and its customers. So easy to type a bunch of mindless comments from the comfort of your room. I guess you could always try your hand at running Bear Creek....but it would probably end up bankrupt and would close its doors in less then a year. You're an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Great comment when you have no basis of understanding exactly what goes in running a resort. You would be hard pressed to find another GM around here that could come even close to Mark's commitment to this resort and its customers. So easy to type a bunch of mindless comments from the comfort of your room. I guess you could always try your hand at running Bear Creek....but it would probably end up bankrupt and would close its doors in less then a year. You're an idiot. have you read any of BC marks posts and the other threads in the BC forum from december and january? inluding this thread? he may be an idiot(just kidding), but his comment does have alot backing it up. you sound like someone who would run a resort like how camelback is run. pwned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexkitten Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 But you have to admit that most of the problems that occurred at BC this season were, at their core, the same basic problem... lack of planning. Yes, Mark addressed BC's issues as they arose and did so in a timely and upfront way but I can't say (from my experience) that anything was really fixed. Maybe all of the issues and kinks from this season will be addressed and fixed for next season but we won't be back to find out and I am willing to bet that we aren't the only ones. Unfortunately I think BC is getting popular enough that they won't miss us which is a damn shame. I hope they don't become like CB. If they install a water park I may have to give those fire bomb plans I was looking at last night a closer look. Haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyIT Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I don't know what goes into running a resort..I have no resort experience. But I do know that pleasing a repeat customer is so important and I believe that operating an extra week at a loss adds so much goodwill to the die-hard passholders, locals, and those thinking of trying out the sport during the early spring warmth make up for it 3-fold. What a waste of all the snow and stockpiles. Blue is only selling a handfull of extra day tickets to Bear Creek, Mountain Creek, Camelback, and JF/BB passholders and not selling many food items, retail items, or renting many skis/boards but they're cementing future season pass business and hopefully attracting new repeat customers. I look out for the skier/rider..not the resort..Most ski area operators in this area get excited about closing because then they can cut their payrolls...they aren't into sweet corn snow and hero moguls..they're all about the bottom line..a shame.. But next January/February they will once again wave the carrot that is April skiing and riding in front of the die-hards as a false sense of hope..only to close due to rain or one or two empty days..Bear Creek could learn a thing or two from Blue mountain.. Ever think that because Bear Creek is owned and essentially operated by an outside company, that maybe it isn't ultimately Mark's or Bear Creek decison on when the actual closing date will be. You look out for the skier/rider, bercause you don't have the financial statements sitting on your desk staring you in the face all day. If Mark and others didn't put the resort's financial stability into account, then there might not be a resort to come to after a while. You buy a pass for $400 some bucks and come up 15 - 20 plus times - you completely get your money's worth and then some, but lets bitch about that list vist or two that I couldn't ski because the resort management was trying to be fiscally responsible about running a business - which it still is despite what anyone else tends to think. As for learning something from Blue...I think they already did that. The old base facility that Bear Creek had was on par to what Blue still has now - and Bear realized what a pile of crap it was and completely leveled it and built new. I think they also realized what they DIDN'T want in a park......thanks Blue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboarddude Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I know i would sux at running a ski area but bear had 4 or 5 days that they could have blown (w/ tons of water)and the lows were in the high teens and low 20's but they knew they had made it past 60 days and could make it atleast 5 more... so they didn't blow. Bear had stockpiles that were not pushed out and big hit was full of snow that could have been pushed out. Bear had perfect conditions on sun. when they closed!! personaly i think bear should have kept the park open and maybe one lift(double). (I'm still hoping for an end of the year rail jam) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Maybe someday Bear will get half as many skier visits as Blue does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 i dont know why everybody expects mountains to keep only the park open later than everything else. lets be realistic people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 i dont know why everybody expects mountains to keep only the park open later than everything else. lets be realistic people. sarcasm.... correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 sarcasm.... correct? must be. look at boulder and 7 springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Grade Teacher Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 i dont know why everybody expects mountains to keep only the park open later than everything else. lets be realistic people. Exactly! Talk about a waste of money. "We are going to be open but only for the park!" Wake up people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papasteeze Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Exactly! Talk about a waste of money. "We are going to be open but only for the park!" Wake up people. more sarcasm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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