New Skis

[snorovr]

Way to be Doug. You're the man. Which reminds me, I saw a sweet looking monument online the other day... I wonder what they're charging...

[Ski]

Unless ski manufacturers open their inventory to chain stores, you'll eventually buy all your skis online. Even the venerable Atomic is shooting itself in the foot by trying to keep little shops open. And typical ski shop prices chase new skiers away from the sport, including potential racers.

 

The people that visit our ski hill are mostly NYers, with vacation homes in our community. They put their kids on old, hand me down straight skis and the kids suffer through every run. I can't begin to tell you how much easier it is to teach a group of kids on the proper ski gear....

 

And the most common answer to why the kids of people with $400,000 vacation homes use 20 yr old crap skis is that new ski gear is too expensive. They also complain that shops are often too far from their homes and have sketchy hours.

 

And so I help solve their problem.

[snorovr]

Probably cheaper than us but most of my customers aren't buying monuments from the internet...yet. Alot of funeral directors that we work with lose thousands of dollars in business to online casket and vault sales. Great for the customer bad for the retailer...

 

 

Well with that information I'm gonna predict that people are going to keep on dying, then buy their caskets online and bury themselves, thus causing many funeral homes to go under. Kind of like how people are goin to keep on skiing, buy their gear online and then not know how to make it work, causing many ski shops to go under.

 

Please keep arguing against ski shops and the invaluable services they provide to many people except for you.

[Justo8484]

Wow justo! what did you do to piss your teacher off?

 

originally, i dont know. so i had some typos, and he caught me; good job to him. what i originally did, i do not know. honestly, i dont really care either. making up an alias and then calling me out is definately the most mature way of going about things though, dont you think? after this past weekend, i'm sick of insignificant little verbal battles; there's been way too much of that going on at blue this year. this weekend was nice; everyone in the park got along who had previously been at each others' throats (with the except of an ignorant ski patroller and a 13 year old with an ego bigger than his vocabulary). it was fun having everyone on good terms and just taking laps ripping up the park with a big crew again. soap operas suck on tv; i'm glad skiing isnt one anymore.

[Ski]

Well with that information I'm gonna predict that people are going to keep on dying, then buy their caskets online and bury themselves, thus causing many funeral homes to go under. Kind of like how people are goin to keep on skiing, buy their gear online and then not know how to make it work, causing many ski shops to go under.

 

Please keep arguing against ski shops and the invaluable services they provide to many people except for you.

 

Yeah, it really sucks that major discount retailer Costco now offers caskets at wholesale prices, instead of families having to pretty much pay what they are told during the worst of times.

 

So why don't you "please keep arguing" on behalf of overpriced ski shops that put skiing out of reach for too many people. Denying that the internet exists didn't seem to fair too well for the three shops in the Trenton area that went out of business since we moved out of the area.

 

Is "invaluable" another term for expensive?

[method9455]

Go right ahead and buy your boots online. See how that works out for ya. The whole internet price thing is crap too, I don't know about ski gear prices but if you serach for snowboard gear online everything you get is crap and or more expensive than it is at my store. I remember a few of my friends thinking they were getting great deals, and they came into my shop and ended up getting better boards, boots, bindings for so much less. Besides ski shops won't die. THe last two years have been horrible weather wiise and our shop has had the two best years in the last 30. We're a single store and we can survive, these other stores are doing something wrong, either too much inventory or not enough saved up for the lean times (thats your $50 mounting charge, you think it costs $50 in labor to mount a ski? Hell no, but to keep a ski tech there for all the times there are no skis to be mounted, you need to charge $50 for the time that he is working)

[Ski]

I bought my last four pairs of ski boots on eBay. Exactly what was your point? That buying $5 heel lifters is something special? You do know that practically all boot molds come from the same factory in Italy, right? Once people figure out that boot brands and styles come in different widths, just like shoes, then they'll be able to match their size. And, anyway, when was the last time someone walked into your shop and was fitted properly? When did someone put on a boot and walk around for more than 30 minutes? As shops continue to go belly up, more good custom boot fitters will find better business.

 

You can call the whole internet price thing "crap", but would you buy a board from a shop for $500, or the exact same board online for $250? I don't call that crap...I call it common sense.

 

Times change...there was a time when people thought buying shoes and clothes from the Sears & Roebuck catalogue was crazy and impossible.

 

That was 1896.

 

Don't hate on me for just pointing out what's happening. I didn't invent the internet. Jeff tells me Al Gore did.

[Schif]

What sites do you use ski999? I am probobly going to be in the market for a new board for next year and I'm not sure where exactly to look online.

[snorovr]

My post was mostly meant as a joke for Doug. Ski you have been a member long enough to have seen the shop vs. internet debates on here in the past, and through those Doug and I know each others position on the topic. As I remember, I used "invaluable" in reference to the advice that shops give, which often times comes free whether you purchase something or not. It is one thing for a person to take a few minutes to ask a few questions about gear they might buy in order to learn about it and learn the correct way to use it. It is another for someone to come in and be fitted up for everything the correct way, which often takes in excess of an hour or two, and then go and purchase all of that stuff online.

 

"And, anyway, when was the last time someone walked into your shop and was fitted properly?"

 

I've seen people being fitted for boots at shops for well over two or three hours, and when I got my liners I was at the shop for an hour and a half until they closed. The tech was just finishing up with me and the owner of the shop offered me a beer and asked if I wanted to hang out for a while longer with the employees and watch movies, etc...

 

"When did someone put on a boot and walk around for more than 30 minutes?"

 

I didn't know ski boots were designed to be fitted for walking...

 

The whole internet vs. shops debate is really quite ironic if you think about it. If there are shops then people won't ski because it is just too expensive. But then if they get all their stuff off the internet then they will have a ton of problems making it fit and function. I guess the only outcome of this whole thing is that ski areas will go out of business because pretty soon there will be no skiers because either its too expensive or its too painful.

[Papasteeze]

Ski999 does not put a value on service or information in a shop, he doesn't have to because of his deep knowledge of the ski industry. I believe he also saw some gouging when he worked in a shop and that has made him disgruntled. However, I think it is somewhat irresponsible to tout that everyone should buy on line. When On-line sellers start supporting competitions and demo days is the day I will start buying ski gear online. until then I will choose to pay a little more to the shops that offer me service, support and information that can't be bought.

[snorovr]

"Ski999 does not put a value on service or information in a shop, he doesn't have to because of his deep knowledge of the ski industry."

 

I just think its rather close-minded to assume that just because you know alot about the industry, then everyone else does. I know this isn't what hes doing, but judging by the language in his posts it is very easy to interpret it that way.

 

What do you do for a living Ski?

[method9455]

You can call the whole internet price thing "crap", but would you buy a board from a shop for $500, or the exact same board online for $250? I don't call that crap...I call it common sense.

 

I've NEVER seen that happen at my shop. And believe me I spend even more time on snowboard.com then here following up on those 'get a board cheap at this site' threads, and so far I've never seen something mroe than $20 or $40 more, but most of the time about equal or our store is cheaper. I don't know what internet site you can go to and get a few guys to talk to you for an hour, or 2, or even 3, about what is the right gear but for your average person its over whelming.

 

As for the boots, if you think you can just order a boot off the internet without knowing a huge amount of boots and sizing already, forget it. And if you go into a store and figure out what boot you want and then go on the internet to buy it, well 1) your an asshole, you are basically stealing the store's time if you give a guy the impression you are buying a boot and then walk out and buy it off the internet. 2) that doesn't work in this argument, becuase the shops obviously are worthwhile.

 

As for how many times do people spend more than 30 minutes in their boots? I would say 8 out of 10 customers of mine are in their boots for more than 30 minutes. Its rare I'm with a customer for less than an hour unless they come in and have an idea what they want already. If the conversation starts with, I need a new pair of skis, but I don't knwo what kind - its an hour or more. If it starts, I want a pair of Volkl 5-stars but I was wondering what else is comparable, its a shorter conversation.

 

And 30 minutes of walking? Why bother walking in your boots they aren't made to be walked in. It's a lot better to spend your time flexing them as if you were actually skiing in the boots.

 

"You do know that practically all boot molds come from the same factory in Italy, right?"

 

Whats your point, the boots are still differant. If they were so similiar then why do people love 1 pair of boots but hate 5 others?

 

" Once people figure out that boot brands and styles come in different widths, just like shoes, then they'll be able to match their size. "

 

But forget anyone who has an odd thing on their foot like one toe thats longer than the others, a high arch, a pressure point somewhere on the ankle, a bone that sticks slightly out. Obviously they can just measure how wide their foot is and how long it is and VOILA the perfect boot is there. Obviously the process of trying 5 or 8 boots on for fit shows how STUPID the guys fitting the boots are, becuase after fitting a hundred customers they should just know what boot fits. But wait what happens when you get the guy who has a wide foot and likes a Lange and the guy who has a narrow foot but wants a Technica HVL becuase he is a boot pussy no matter what you tell him?

 

Maybe it works for you, I bought everything but boots off a pro-form for a reason. Boots for me are a lot more specific than 'they fit my feet'. I want the boot that is perfect for my foot.

 

"And, anyway, when was the last time someone walked into your shop and was fitted properly? "

 

Today, and the day before that, and the day before that, and the day before that. Forget that we have 3 or 4 guys who have been in ski shops for 8, 10, 12, 20 years selling boots. Obviously boot fitting is best done through a catalog or better yet a flashy website. This is my first year working in a shop and despite going through all the clinics and talking through all hte gear like a hundred times over, tried every pair of boots on etc etc I dont' sell ski boots without one of hte more experianced guys advice. That doesn't come up for skis/snowboards/bindings/snowboard boots, but for ski boots it takes longer to learn what will work for the woman with the cankle. Or woman with the really narrow ankle that needs a tighter heel pocket. By now I know what boots but once in a while a person will come along that I haven't dealt with before and one of hte other guys will have to find a boot. You expect people to figure this out on their own?

 

"As shops continue to go belly up, more good custom boot fitters will find better business."

But if it becomes the norm, people will start to come to the boot fitters, find the right boots, and then go online to but them. At what point does the store have to start charging people to try on boots? We do it for tennis rackets already, $5 for each tennis racket you demo, but you can deduct that from the cost of a racket when you buy it. WHat if it were $5 for each half hour of my time you waste trying boots on you don't intend to buy, and if you buy one you get it back, becuase most of hte time while this goes on there are other customers waiting for help.

[Papasteeze]

WHat if it were $5 for each half hour of my time you waste trying boots on you don't intend to buy, and if you buy one you get it back, becuase most of hte time while this goes on there are other customers waiting for help.

 

anybody named dug or does kareoke or what ever it is called should get charged triple

[Ski]

Wow, that's all just waaay too much to even read. You guys got pretty hung up on boots not made to be walked in...but, uh, how else does someone heat them up and check real pressure points and get a real idea for what needs to be done?

 

When I do a group lesson, I often ask about people's equipment and how long they were fitted...maybe you all want to believe you spend hours fitting boots, but, uh, no you don't. The average Pocono boot buyer tries on three pairs and spends less than 10 minutes in a boot they are going to have for at least five years--and often for their entire ski career.

 

You guys are funny...holding onto the fact that people will remain ignorant in order to maintain huge mark-ups. People aren't that stupid. Remember the poll taken in the late 90's that showed 85% of people were not comfortable using their credit cards online? Fine, blame me. Hate on me. But what's that number now?

 

There was a thread months ago in which I gave links to sizing charts for EVERYTHING you need to go skiing. It isn't rocket science to save 75% off of shop prices online. It takes a little effort, but so does driving to a shop...and so does spending an extra day or two at work to pay the difference.

 

So I'm merely suggesting that local shops step up their online presense. Ski shops may have the worst websites of any business type I've ever seen. Most aren't updated, have any prices, or are anything but an electronic billboard with links back to the manufacturers. For example, go here and check out The Ski Bum:

 

http://www.skisite.com/epic/shopsList.cfm?state=PA

 

Click through to their site and look for a price on Atomic GS:11's...or Volkl's...or Rossi's...

 

Do ski shops really think that the general public wants to walk into a store and negotiate for a good deal?

 

Let me answer for the general public: NO!

 

So you guys can yell at me all you want, but YOU guys are the one's that will suffer if you don't adapt to the new online competition.

 

Support your local shop? I'd rather donate to my local library.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you do for a living Ski?

 

Currently a sports photographer. Former ski instructor at some big places...current PT instructor at a tiny ski area. Also, part owner of a small ski area that has two lifts and a rental shop that is always in need of more cheap gear.

 

What sites do you use ski999? I am probobly going to be in the market for a new board for next year and I'm not sure where exactly to look online.

I start with eBay, Schif. Then I often use the places that have eBay "stores" and also physical shops, like Emilios and Cupolasports. If you go to eBay and make your way to ski and snowboarding, just click around on some of the snowboards and look for shops that way. Once you find a place with good prices and lots of gear, just bookmark it.

 

My post was mostly meant as a joke for Doug.

Sorry if I misundertood you.

[Ski]

I also want to add---to this topic that many people think is a much-beaten dead horse---that my motivation is to find good, cheap gear for people that would otherwise not ski. I'm not a "disgruntled" ex-employee, as Rob has suggested. My negative work experience happened at Pelican over 25 years ago, as a kid...it's more of a funny old story to me.

 

I think, though, that a ski shop owner might take some value in the voices coming from ski slopes, rather than just those that have already found his shop.

[method9455]

well no one said my shop is in the poconos so don't judge your informal poll on my shop. We're a small store, not pelican/princeton and all that crap. You come in here and you get service. On average we make 30% profit on stuff, so right now during our 50% sale we're losing money. Realize half the stuff you find online is last years anyway, or at least thats what I find on most of the internet sites I look at. But of course it doesn't mention that anywhere. SO of course the prices look good, but in reality our last years stuff is 80% off so its a moot point. As for the internet, our shop is going online for next season, so yea, its inevitable that they will have to go that way. but to tell people that by simply sizing their foot they can pick a boot is irresponisible. I can see the argument for skis/bindings/snowboards etc, so you want to save some money, if you can find a better price ok. But to tell people that all boots are the same is wrong. I'd rather see people walk into pelican and spend 5 minutes per boot than buy just one off the internet, the more happy skiers out there, the more money the mountains have, the more snwo they make for me.

[Ski]

well no one said my shop is in the poconos so don't judge your informal poll on my shop. We're a small store, not pelican/princeton and all that crap. You come in here and you get service. On average we make 30% profit on stuff, so right now during our 50% sale we're losing money. Realize half the stuff you find online is last years anyway, or at least thats what I find on most of the internet sites I look at. But of course it doesn't mention that anywhere. SO of course the prices look good, but in reality our last years stuff is 80% off so its a moot point. As for the internet, our shop is going online for next season, so yea, its inevitable that they will have to go that way. but to tell people that by simply sizing their foot they can pick a boot is irresponisible. I can see the argument for skis/bindings/snowboards etc, so you want to save some money, if you can find a better price ok. But to tell people that all boots are the same is wrong. I'd rather see people walk into pelican and spend 5 minutes per boot than buy just one off the internet, the more happy skiers out there, the more money the mountains have, the more snwo they make for me.

 

Good point. Absolutely right. The 80% savings is for last year's models. I'm one of those crazy people that NEVER buys "next years" newest model, which, as you know, is often a graphics change. If it's a major structure change, then I wouldn't want it until I had a chance to demo it anyway. I'm also a little crazy in that I believe the vast majority of Pocono skiers are beginner to intermediates and don't have any particular need for "this years model"...not that many experts do, for that matter.

 

Buying the newest model online will only save about 20 to 30% off of the shops...

 

I never said BOOTS ARE ALL THE SAME. I said they all come from the same factory in Italy...that's a DIN related issue, as you know. The shells all have to conform.

 

Informal poll? That's a little disparaging, considering I'm the one stuck having to help people actually use what ski shops send them out the door with. Ski instructors see the results of poorly fitting boots daily. They see the frustration, the pain, and the wasted money. Informal poll?

 

Anyway, the next step for boot manufacturers is to begin to more accurately list sizing. Rather than have annual reviewers just say "medium toe box", etc...With proper information, the correct boot can be matched. A good bootfitter can do the tweaking, which is even more accurate after it's been skied for a day or two.

 

The most amazing custom footbeds are done via the mail. The boot business is not a big leap, no matter how irresponsible shop owners feel it is.

 

IDK, but think of the possibilities of being part of this cutting edge opportunity. It isn't just technology you are battling...the last glacier in Glacier National Park will be gone in 24 years...by 2050, the only skiing in the U.S. will be done on manmade snow.

 

So, about Rob's Hummer collection...

[DHarrisburg]

Ski, just to let you know, the amount of money you'd save on various ski equipment really doesn't translate across the board to snowboard equipment. The only way to find discounts as extreme as the ones you're talking about would be to find a random person ebaying something they got for free (or extremely cheap), and those auctions are few and far between.

 

Just out of curiousity, have you checked some of the prices you've got versus prices in retail shops? I've got the impression that you haven't been in a shop lately (or you don't frequent them). Just because an auction says that a pair of skis/snowboard "RETAILS FOR $499 L00K!!!" means they're actually selling for $499 in the real world.

[method9455]

Yea we're by no means a stuck in the past type shop, hell even we're opening a full internet shop with a warehouse even though we're one store, but that doesn't mean I think people will be better off using the internet. Its one thing for you, or me, or most of the poeople on this board to buy their stuff online. Its another thing entirely for the average person to go on and try to buy stuff. I think snowboarders will do it more than skiers becuase a binding is a binding right? Wrong. I just think that a lot of people will end up with stuff thats not good for them. Hell I'm getting out of my shop now anyway so it doesn't effect me much, but itd be a shame for shops to be replaced by websites becuase a lot of guys in smaller shops know a hell of a lot about ski equipment.

 

Although your are damn right about the novice/intermediate thing, the thing that jars you when you come home from a big mountain is how shitty everyone around you is, its amazing that after being surrounded by really good skiers and riders with like 1 intermediate totally standing out, and then come home and there are like 6 guys who can actually carve a snowboard on the hill at a time.