RyanPhillip Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Utah Avalanche Center updated the report and added photos... The first avalanche is one they triggered but were not caught in, and the other two photos show the chute Pierre was dragged through, pretty intense. That first slide is pretty dam big. http://utahavalanchecenter.org/accident_gad_valley_11132011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Utah Avalanche Center updated the report and added photos... The first avalanche is one they triggered but were not caught in, and the other two photos show the chute Pierre was dragged through, pretty intense. That first slide is pretty dam big. http://utahavalanche...valley_11132011 Its actually kind of small by international standards LOL, there was a year with regular 6-10ft crowns in Switzerland, Mt Cook/Ruapeu in NZ can go redic big and San Juans in Southern CO are extremely active. Kinda strange report in terms of these two things - "They had not consulted the avalanche advisory that morning" and " While ascending out of the Peruvian Cirque they remotely triggered a large avalanche that covered their tracks that they had just made. It's unclear whether they realized they had triggered this large avalanche." I'm not sure how you miss the first avy, they were booting so they aren't moving that fast.....I would take away two things, always always listen to the morning report because it will almost always give you a good heads up on what to look for. Two take 5 seconds and dig a hasty pit at least. The total depth there is maybe 3ft, so two mins of shoveling and you could easily tell its all sitting on shit. EDIT: What a bunch of fucking cock munchers "It was reported that skiers above were triggering snow down into Greeley Bowl (in the unopened Alta ski resort) as the ski patrol and Wasatch Backcountry Rescue were laboring to evacuate the patient who had sustained the fractured femur from an avalanche ride in the Gunsight. This is unacceptable." Edited November 15, 2011 by Johnny Law 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanPhillip Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Its actually kind of small by international standards LOL, there was a year with regular 6-10ft crowns in Switzerland, Mt Cook/Ruapeu in NZ can go redic big and San Juans in Southern CO are extremely active. Kinda strange report in terms of these two things - "They had not consulted the avalanche advisory that morning" and " While ascending out of the Peruvian Cirque they remotely triggered a large avalanche that covered their tracks that they had just made. It's unclear whether they realized they had triggered this large avalanche." I'm not sure how you miss the first avy, they were booting so they aren't moving that fast.....I would take away two things, always always listen to the morning report because it will almost always give you a good heads up on what to look for. Two take 5 seconds and dig a hasty pit at least. The total depth there is maybe 3ft, so two mins of shoveling and you could easily tell its all sitting on shit. I know it wasn't big compared to other slides but the width is pretty impressive if you were trying to descend and got caught in that there would be no where to go. I think it is strange that also that they wouldn't have noticed that slide, I find it hard to believe they didn't. Also, it definitely would have seemed obvious to see problems in the snow pack... I am no expert by any means, but to me its sad because it seems as if I might have been avoidable...... Don't want to knock the dude because I am sure he didn't intend on dying, but definitely a sobering lesson to be careful in the bc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timeless Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Utah Avalanche Center updated the report and added photos... The first avalanche is one they triggered but were not caught in, and the other two photos show the chute Pierre was dragged through, pretty intense. That first slide is pretty dam big. http://utahavalanche...valley_11132011 Looking at the report, it seems difficult to believe that someone of his experience would walk away from triggering a huge avy (without noticing it? is that even possible) and then take on a slope like that. Given how he died, I have to wonder if the fact that he never seemed to wear a helmet, even on the 250ft cliff drop is significant. Edited November 15, 2011 by Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Looking at the report, it seems difficult to believe that someone of his experience would walk away from triggering a huge avy (without noticing it? is that even possible) and then take on a slope like that. Given how he died, I have to wonder if the fact that he never seemed to wear a helmet, even on the 250ft cliff drop is significant. Well the aspects are different which most of the time is 50% of the game. If you understood terrain choice, wind and aspect alone you could ride BC for your entire life with little chance of serious trouble assuming you made the right decisions with that info. The approach was on a east aspect which normally in this type of weather pattern is considered more dangerous, they see it rip and say well its east so that is more dangerous lets go NW and we should be fine. I realize that may sound strange but its not all that unusual, many times when touring your avoiding Northern aspects or certain shoulders or roll overs. Everyone has different levels of risk tolerance, I may decide based on a number of things that it is time to run USA Bowl which is maybe one of the safest places to tour in the world where as you may decide to just switch aspects. Nobody is really right or wrong because 99% of the time nothing happens for reasons that have little to do with avy decision making. Avy science is very immature, as humans we have the ability to say I won't every put myself in avy terrain and thus my exposure to a potential slide is .0001% but most people don't want to ski like that. Lastly and there is no nice way to say this most people are uneducated but due to the rarity of the event by and large most people get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justo8484 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 I read that Jaime Pierre had no formal avalanche training and was not wearing Avy gear. this is what blows my mind. no formal training? the guy's out in the BC all winter long, year after year, and they're saying he's got no formal training? i find that really hard to believe. did he have any sort of backcountry certification? i dunno, but all the time spent in the BC with his peers, film crews, etc who i'm sure take the utmost precautions in those situations, has got to count for something, even if he doesn't have a piece of paper to say he knows what's up. it blows my mind that someone with his amont of experience in the BC would ride sketchy preseason snowpack without any sort of avy gear. something seems a bit weird about that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 this is what blows my mind. no formal training? the guy's out in the BC all winter long, year after year, and they're saying he's got no formal training? i find that really hard to believe. did he have any sort of backcountry certification? i dunno, but all the time spent in the BC with his peers, film crews, etc who i'm sure take the utmost precautions in those situations, has got to count for something, even if he doesn't have a piece of paper to say he knows what's up. it blows my mind that someone with his amont of experience in the BC would ride sketchy preseason snowpack without any sort of avy gear. something seems a bit weird about that. Its not that strange in the sense that formal avy training isn't that formal. If your dad was a master welder and taught you everything about welding from the time you left the womb what possible purpose could you have for taking TIG 101 other than to secure a piece of paper. Thus dude was around this shit at a very high level since he left Minnesota, he traveled with some of the premiere authorities on snow science who aren't working in labs. That's not to say they made good decisions or shouldn't have brought gear but more to explain why he never took 1 or 2. I took AIARE I&II and they aren't all that formal. I is pretty much how to identify avalanche terrain and the basics of decision making. II is some of the why and more tools to travel in avy terrain. Neither of them are a fail/pass kind of situation, I mean I guess you could fail if you were a total ass or didn't show up but you have to seek this kind of instruction out so I'm not sure why that would be the case. The bigger problem is on the lower end, the vast majority of people don't have any knowledge what so ever and if your playing anywhere in the west you should at least know the basics. Maybe not even a 1 course just pick up a book like staying alive and you'll be in pretty good shape. It shouldn't blow your mind...he has a death wish..I saw some of his POV footage and he is next level insane...seriously think amount the 250 foot jump he did at Targhee 4-5 years ago...he did it for Jesus. People that say shit like that are a few frys short of a happy meal. I forgot who died in the base jumping accident..I think McConkney but they were blaming red bull for some of the crazy stunts. I sort of think it's wrong to be as extreme as he was if you have kids. When watching the 250 foot cliff jump video I was thinking...what would have happened to video and everybody if he died. Cameraman have to drag his corpse down. I hate the debate he was doing what he loved or you could just as easily die in a car crash. I love skiing so I take precautions that I'll be able to ski till I'm relatively old. Jamie Pierre is a dumbass plain and simple...on TGR they treat him like god...he's entertaining to watch but is an idiot...real talk. I like you Doug, Doug lyfe for sure but simply no. I met the guy once in the tram line and a bunch of people I know knew him. One somewhat well, he didn't have any kind of death wish and as of late really toned down the type of skiing he was doing. Millions of people ski were he died every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick malozzi Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) all this arm chair quarterbacking from a bunch of people who wouldn't know how to put skins on their skis is fucking hilarious. johnny pretty much nailed everything, so i'm not going to rehash what he's already said except one thing. MOST people traveling in the bc have no "official training." in fact, most don't have the slightest clue of the dangers they are putting themselves in. jamie didn't fall in that camp, but it's not a huge surprise that he had no training. i've met guys cruising around with the latest/greatest avy gear, have never been in a slide, and have never taken a class. in all honesty the classes are great, but you can get all the same info EASILY online. i don't have any "official" training myself in that i'm not certified by anyone, but i've taken a number of classes. in the end it is all irrelevant if you make a bad choice. he could have had all the training in the world and still made the same choice. that being said, i find it strange he had no gear with him, but i wouldn't call that a death wish as i don't know what series of choices/decisions he made along the way to decide to leave that stuff at home. in the end, doug you're a dick. death wish or not he was still a person. and it sucks to lose him. Edited November 15, 2011 by nick malozzi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justo8484 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Its not that strange in the sense that formal avy training isn't that formal. If your dad was a master welder and taught you everything about welding from the time you left the womb what possible purpose could you have for taking TIG 101 other than to secure a piece of paper. Thus dude was around this shit at a very high level since he left Minnesota, he traveled with some of the premiere authorities on snow science who aren't working in labs. That's not to say they made good decisions or shouldn't have brought gear but more to explain why he never took 1 or 2. I took AIARE I&II and they aren't all that formal. I is pretty much how to identify avalanche terrain and the basics of decision making. II is some of the why and more tools to travel in avy terrain. Neither of them are a fail/pass kind of situation, I mean I guess you could fail if you were a total ass or didn't show up but you have to seek this kind of instruction out so I'm not sure why that would be the case. The bigger problem is on the lower end, the vast majority of people don't have any knowledge what so ever and if your playing anywhere in the west you should at least know the basics. Maybe not even a 1 course just pick up a book like staying alive and you'll be in pretty good shape. I like you Doug, Doug lyfe for sure but simply no. I met the guy once in the tram line and a bunch of people I know knew him. One somewhat well, he didn't have any kind of death wish and as of late really toned down the type of skiing he was doing. Millions of people ski were he died every year. yeah i guess i worded that poorly. you said basically what i meant. he's out there all winter long in some of the sketchiest conditions dealing with terrain people teaching some of these courses have probably never encountered. not having that piece of paper doesn't mean crap when you've got that kind of experience. i just don't understand why he wouldn't have avy gear with him. i've been to places inbounds where i felt vulnerable not having it. heck, in washington with -dan and toast last winter, we set off three slides in bounds within 5 minutes of our first lift ride and our friend was buried mid thigh. i think we took one or two more runs and called it a day. not at all worth risking it when conditions are that slide-prone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) yeah i guess i worded that poorly. you said basically what i meant. he's out there all winter long in some of the sketchiest conditions dealing with terrain people teaching some of these courses have probably never encountered. not having that piece of paper doesn't mean crap when you've got that kind of experience. i just don't understand why he wouldn't have avy gear with him. i've been to places inbounds where i felt vulnerable not having it. heck, in washington with -dan and toast last winter, we set off three slides in bounds within 5 minutes of our first lift ride and our friend was buried mid thigh. i think we took one or two more runs and called it a day. not at all worth risking it when conditions are that slide-prone. He certainly isn't without fault, I have a tough time figuring out the no gear thing too. I guess what bugs me most is his family, I know he was way committed to them and he failed them. I have a kid who I think is the greatest thing in the world and it changes the way you see potential risks. So with all that I can't see how he missed some pretty basic signs and didn't bring gear. Every time you leave the resort you have a duty to your family that you take all the reasonable precautions so that you can come home safely, for human reasons he didn't this time and unfortunately he had to pay the ultimate price. All that said though snow science is a bogus thing to a certain degree, nobody is an expert, everything is possible. I used to think it was dumb people doing dumb things and it mostly is but on the other side is a group of very highly trained individuals who for various reasons end up dead. Now I think it one of those things that can be mitigated by good solid decision making but ultimately comes down to luck. If you play on that field for long enough shit just happens, shit that frankly humans can't deal with. We make mistakes, we do stupid things that at the time seem of zero consequence, we are ultimately unable to foresee all possibilities regardless of the knowledge we posses, our brains are not wired for this kind of 1/100000 type problem. Sometimes you can do everything right and still end up dead. JP didn't make all the right decisions for sure but none of us do. I smoke, Doug maybe drives like an idiot etc etc humanity is about understanding not condemnation, we should seek knowledge and understanding, not hate or division. Doug when you rip this guy you miss the much larger truth that every mother fucker on this earth does the same kind of shit every fucking day, your just lucky in that it didn't cost you your life. Edited November 15, 2011 by Johnny Law 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanPhillip Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) all this arm chair quarterbacking from a bunch of people who wouldn't know how to put skins on their skis is fucking hilarious. johnny pretty much nailed everything, so i'm not going to rehash what he's already said except one thing. MOST people traveling in the bc have no "official training." in fact, most don't have the slightest clue of the dangers they are putting themselves in. jamie didn't fall in that camp, but it's not a huge surprise that he had no training. i've met guys cruising around with the latest/greatest avy gear, have never been in a slide, and have never taken a class. in all honesty the classes are great, but you can get all the same info EASILY online. i don't have any "official" training myself in that i'm not certified by anyone, but i've taken a number of classes. in the end it is all irrelevant if you make a bad choice. he could have had all the training in the world and still made the same choice. that being said, i find it strange he had no gear with him, but i wouldn't call that a death wish as i don't know what series of choices/decisions he made along the way to decide to leave that stuff at home. in the end, doug you're a dick. death wish or not he was still a person. and it sucks to lose him. Hey man, I know I am a new guy around this board, but its kind of funny how you diss everyone for not being as experienced as you, yet you agree in the point everyone is making in that it is CURIOUS how someone who was professional was riding back country conditions without proper safety gear. Even though in this case avy gear would not have affected the outcome. Timeless also poses a good question in that would a helmet have made a difference, and I think that is a good point. None of us here are claiming to be avalanche experts man, but it also doesn't take an expert to question judgement, preparedness and I think we can all agree on that. As much as everyone is hatin' on GSS's opinion he does have a point even if he is a little too strongly wording it and even if you don't agree with him. The guy has a family he left behind and that really sucks, did he really have to ride the that chute knowing the conditions. Not trying to start an internet battle with you at all, just saying you don't need to dismiss the opinions of people in this thread because you deem them less expereinced, it doesn't take a lot of experience to see that someone was not taking proper safety precautions. I agree with you in that at the end of the day Jamie Pierre is dead and that stinks for his family.... Edited November 16, 2011 by Night Rider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Hey man, I know I am a new guy around this board, but its kind of funny how you diss everyone for not being as experienced as you, yet you agree in the point everyone is making in that it is CURIOUS how someone who was professional was riding back country conditions without proper safety gear. Even though in this case avy gear would not have affected the outcome. Timeless also poses a good question in that would a helmet have made a difference, and I think that is a good point. None of us here are claiming to be avalanche experts man, but it also doesn't take an expert to question judgement, preparedness and I think we can all agree on that. As much as everyone is hatin' on GSS's opinion he does have a point even if he is a little too strongly wording it and even if you don't agree with him. The guy has a family he left behind and that really sucks, did he really have to ride the that chute knowing the conditions. Not trying to start an internet battle with you at all, just saying you don't need to dismiss the opinions of people in this thread because you deem them less expereinced, it doesn't take a lot of experience to see that someone was not taking proper safety precautions. I agree with you in that at the end of the day Jamie Pierre is dead and that stinks for his family.... A helmet would have held his smashed noggin together in one place for easy clean up, thats about it. South Chute is 600 ft of rock in January let alone in Nov. Also I am an expert on everything including quantum entanglement and the best diner in Berks for pancakes. Lastly I don't see how Nick was being a dick, he's right in that there are maybe 3 people who know how skins even work and there are maybe 10 people here with any real avy knowledge. People want to separate themselves say I could never make such a blatant error or this guy had a death wish but lets be frank they don't have the first fucking clue what they are talking about. The people with knowledge and who actually tour are telling you its alot more complicated than that. If you think you got your shit on lock go out and tour. Watch how quick random shit can turn dangerous before you even realize what is going on. I've had my brushes with disaster and it was straight up luck shit didn't go worse. You can mitigate and you can plan but there are way too many variables to have everything figured out. Jordan is playing in bigger mtns and from what we all can tell is a very knowledgeable and accomplished tourer and if I remember right he had a trip go bad last year too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibhusky Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Well, I think we can sum it all up as....it only takes an instant for your life to go wrong. One nanosecond, one slight misstep. I've found this out the hard way over the years. Some things are the results of what you've done over an extended period, but other things it's just some blip that either you or something else set off. I don't want to get into assigning the cause of this guy's death, but I do feel for those he left behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 this thread is retarded. i woke up before 2 pm today! first time in about a month and a half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanPhillip Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Let me clarify by saying I just think its being a bit dickish to discount others by saying they couldn't put skins on and projecting oneself as an expert and then basically agreeing to what was said over and over in this thread. That's all. Johnny Law- I agree with you 100% man, you can have all the formal training in the world and make good decisions and yet still get taken for a ride...you never know. Still doesn't change the fact that we are all looking at this dude's judgement as possibly being poor and it doesn't take an expert to see that.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillycore Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Everything anyone does or doesn't do involves some sort of risk. It is what we choose to do or not do which can minimize or maximize that risk. That is where decision making comes into play. What we can all agree to is that ultimately Jamie Pierre's decisions were what eventually led to his own demise. Whether or not we agree with his decisions is what's really up for debate. However with that being said, they were his decisions to make and whether we agree or disagree with his decisions is irrelevant as he had to live and die with his decisions the same way we all will with our own decisions. Let the man go wherever he goes in death and remember the good things, while making good decisions for yourself based on your own assessment of the situation. Negativity in death falls upon deaf ears and heavy hearts. R. I. P. Jamie.... I thank you for the attention that you brought to the sport we both loved in our own very different ways. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick malozzi Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 i think i hit 20 last year, but i don't really make it a habbit of counting. # of days means absolutely nothing to me. i could have gotten more days in, but it got warm early in the front range and my mountain bike seemed more appealing. that's not really the point though... was i being a dick with the "skin" comment, yea, but that was my intention. as far as "projecting oneself as an expert." i wasn't claiming shit, i was reiterating what was already said by johnny law, in that you can have the most training in the world and still die from a bad choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan- Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 On another forum there were some really good points made. Were people surprised when Amy Winehouse died?? No. Were people surprised when Jerry Garcia died? No. Were people surprised when Jaime Pierre died?? No. They made risky choices. People make risky choices every day though. Getting in your car every day is a risky choice. Do you ever expect to be killed no, but it could happen to anyone at any time. Regardless of how much knowledge any one person has on anything, there is always something that can go wrong. For Jamie's sake even he was the most experienced person in the world and knew everything there was to snow science, something can still go wrong. It's mother nature, no one can predict what is going to happen. Did he go out in questionable conditions? Yeah sure. Does that discount him as being a dumbass? No. When Doug Coombs died attempting to save his friends life was he a dumbass for trying to save his buddy in a risky situation knowing that shit could go wrong. No absolutely not. Sure people make money on doing risky things, but you can say that for people in many different jobs not just the extreme sport industry. Some people just get bored living the everyday life and seek more. They push the envelope, and some may die. We know it's going to happen, but that doesn't instantly make them a jackass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick malozzi Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) Was Jamie a jackass for his 260 foot swan dive at Targhee? u say "swan dive" as though the dude walked up to the edge of a cliff in a bathing suit and yelled cannon ball. pretty sure he didn't intend on landing on his head. as it's already been said, he was known for studying/calculating his crazy jumps. he over rotated just like half the people trying shit in the park. is everyone who's hurt themselves pushing themselves in the park a jackass in your mind? Edited November 17, 2011 by nick malozzi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick malozzi Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) If they went off a 260 foot booter yes. well if i follow your logic than i think you're a jackass for allowing yourself to balloon out of shape. thus increasing your chances of contracting heart disease and diabetes and other major illnesses. that's all i'm saying on this matter at this point. i don't find it at all appropriate to get involved with a flame war in a thread about someone who died doing what we all love. Edited November 17, 2011 by nick malozzi 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 well if i follow your logic than i think you're a jackass for allowing yourself to balloon out of shape. thus increasing your chances of contracting heart disease and diabetes and other major illnesses. that's all i'm saying on this matter at this point. i don't find it at all appropriate to get involved with a flame war in a thread about someone who died doing what we all love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryHugo Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 well if i follow your logic than i think you're a jackass for allowing yourself to balloon out of shape. thus increasing your chances of contracting heart disease and diabetes and other major illnesses. that's all i'm saying on this matter at this point. i don't find it at all appropriate to get involved with a flame war in a thread about someone who died doing what we all love. Funniest post ever. "I don't want to be in a flame war, but Doug is fat.". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick malozzi Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Funniest post ever. "Doug is fat, but I don't want to be in a flame war." fixed it for ya 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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