method9455 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 That is a good question. Each 24 hour session costs us about $16,000 in labor and electric. That figure does not account for any other equipment costs, fuel for the snowmobiles and cats or depreciation on capital purchases. Over a 24 hour period with a 24F wetbulb, we can make approximately 57 acre feet of snow (enough snow to cover 57 acres with 1 foot of snow). I would estimate that we will lose approximately 60 to 80 acre feet of snow from today's rain. This is on the high end for winter rain events due to the relatively high temperature of the rain and the air and the extended duration of the event. Using 80 acre feet as our loss estimate, we will lose $22,456 in snow today. This does not account for lost revenue as a result of the closure which could be considerable. I have not investigated the cost of tarps to cover a trail or piles, but tarps to cover the magic carpets in the summer, 700' x 5', ran about $3,000 each. Our average trail width here is nearly 300' so you can see that this could add up pretty quick. The other issue would be storage and the logistics of deploying the tarps in a timely manner. I am definitly open to suggestions if anyone has ideas. Thanks for the numbers. Back of the napkin, you paid $0.85 per sq foot or about $7.7 per yard for that tarp. I found comparable tarps for $0.27 and $0.74 so I think what you are paying for is odd shape of that tarp so it had to be hand made I'm sure. http://shop.coversuperstore.com/index.cfm?...;categoryID=268 http://shop.coversuperstore.com/index.cfm?...;categoryID=268 It is still impossible to cover a whole trail, assuming 100 yards wide and 500 yards long, you need 50,000 yards of material. The cost is not really the problem, it would be $13,500 for the thin one and $37,000 for the thick on, but the weight is the problem. The blue cover would be 9 tons and I didn't even figure out the heavier cover because that is just impossible. The better solution is to get tarps for strategic areas. Whales, jumps, lift loading and unloading, areas that are critical or have a lot of valuable snow. The real problem is what happens to the water. It isn't permeating into the snow under the cover, but rolling off so its going to hurt the other snow even more. You would need to find places where drainage is possible. Plus if the tarp freezes after, you are screwed. I know for sure that a 50x50 blue tarp can be handled by 2 people. The 100x100 heavy weight one is more of a problem, but still 4 or 5 guys can move them. Unrolling them over the snow and staking them is quick, rolling them back up is the hard part. Maybe a start would be to buy them to cover the lips for park features so that you don't have to farm the snow off the rest of the trail after a storm like this. Get a few dozen 25x25 foot tarps, and two or three 50x50 for jumps. Still not sure it is possible to break even solely on the saving of snowmaking costs, but once you factor in the opportunity costs of having to close mid january like has happened a few times before, it might be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boardin_nerd Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) Hmmm.. Probably not worth it.. to much would be put into it for not enough effect.... cuz after all that rain is on the tarp whatre you going to do with it? Edited December 10, 2008 by boardin_nerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JibHonk Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hmmm.. Probably not worth it.. to much would be put into it for not enough effect.... cuz after all that rain is on the tarp whatre you going to do with it? he alrdy said they would just need to find a way to drain it all but i like the idea of tarps on the whales and lips. is there a way to relocate the small staircase? it seems after every decent night of blowing the park crew needs to spend hours digging it back out and getting it back into hittable condition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boardin_nerd Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 he alrdy said they would just need to find a way to drain it all but i like the idea of tarps on the whales and lips.is there a way to relocate the small staircase? it seems after every decent night of blowing the park crew needs to spend hours digging it back out and getting it back into hittable condition ya ma bad. and you mean the one in cascade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollyskeez Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 he alrdy said they would just need to find a way to drain it all but i like the idea of tarps on the whales and lips.is there a way to relocate the small staircase? it seems after every decent night of blowing the park crew needs to spend hours digging it back out and getting it back into hittable condition I'm pretty sure its in concrete so it wouldn't be very easy to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hmmm.. Probably not worth it.. to much would be put into it for not enough effect.... cuz after all that rain is on the tarp whatre you going to do with it? That really is the question, how do you drain the water without destroying all the other snow that wasn't under the tarp? I don't have an easy answer. The whole idea of it, aside from covering maybe some of the lips, is not easy or someone would have done it already. But I feel like if they are losing $40k+ of snow a year, plus opportunity costs, there is a solution to the problem that would be worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schif Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Just a quick idea, if the tarp could potentially have some sort of gutter system on the edges, I would suggest drilling a small hole through the snowpack and funneling the water down through it (with a sleeve in the snow of course) so that all the water that lands on a whale will go right under the snow and into the ground causing the least amount of damage possible. I would suggest a long inflatable tube on the edge of the tarp. When inflated it would cause a little gully between the edge of the tarp and it, giving the water somewhere to pool and then drain. Kinda makes me want to draw something up but I've got wayyy too many lab reports to take the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboarddude Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 i'm liking this dome idea.. even if it was only on blackbear and kodiak hm this would create a new type of comp in pa summer boarding??? what would something like that run in price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JibHonk Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 i'm liking this dome idea.. even if it was only on blackbear and kodiak what would something like that run in price smoke another one bro this will NEVER happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboarddude Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 smoke another one bro this will NEVER happen dude don't doubt bearcreek haha its a nice thought though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 i'm liking this dome idea.. even if it was only on blackbear and kodiak hm this would create a new type of comp in pa summer boarding??? what would something like that run in price ask Blue... they freakin' built one for their snow tubing hut.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 The bubble is a bad idea for Bear, while it might save snow sometimes, on the nights when it would be possible to make snow, it would never cool down as fast as having nothing so you lose snowmaking time. And what are you going to do? Keep it air conditioned all year round? That would be horribly expensive. The Xanadu one looks like a loss leader just to get people to come buy crap at a mall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summersux Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I know how to get a lot of tarp for free. Well, not tarp but waterproof plastic. Greenhouses change their plastic every couple of years and that is a BIG piece of plastic. Once they change it they have no need for it. I don't know if it would trap heat from the sun with the snow or trap in the cold.. you would have to test it. Don't worry about the water. It's a hill, it will run quickly down the plastic down the hill to the creek. Just start to take it away from the top when you remove it so any standing water will drain away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2rider2690 Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 What if with every snow maker they stored a 25 by 25 foot tarp...when they are expecting rain pull out the tarp and cover the whales...when it's done raining roll the tarp back up and put it back with the snowgun. There could even be a little holder made to attatch to the snowgun somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboarddude Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 usualy rain isn't this big of a problem because it usualy just turns icy and runs off but yesterday it was so warm that didn't happen which created a larger problem i think thats right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC-Mark Posted December 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Thanks for all the ideas. I will talk with the park crew and snowmakers to get their input. Runoff is an issue, but we have drainage swales all over the mountain to direct the water off the trail so it does not undermine the snow. The water is then channeled through off-trail swales into our ponds. If we directed water into the swales, it should not be an issue. Sanchezz is correct, typically the snow glazes over and water just runs off without doing too much damage to the snow. This is also one of the reasons we do not groom prior to rain events. This time, the rain came after a few days of warm temperatures even during overnight periods and the snow did not have a chance to develop a crust. We could just move to New Orleans where it is snowing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboarddude Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 well if you figure out a way to move the mountain... be sure to take my house too thanks for the updates and hopefuly the groomer can fix this mess the rain left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 allow bears parent company to develop the area into a lakeside resort or something, move lifts and snowmaking to another local. the place just cant win with weather ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollyskeez Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 that would be insane amounts of work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideBRTN09 Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Fresh off the website: Bear Creek will reopen for skiing and riding on Friday at 4pm. Bring your goggles, because snowmaking temperatures should return Friday night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeer_tomas Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Indeed. Andy and I will head in in the AM to assess the damage hopefully its not too bad. I'll try and get on before 4 tomorrow and post a conditions report of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petter369 Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 i mean i dont mean to be negative nancy, but holy shit, how can bear save the snow. its been raining for what seems like 3 days straight now, and atleast a couple of inches, with the rain continuing on through tonight.. i hate pa weather. maybe Atlanta will be opening a resort pretty soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinemind Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 i hate pa weather. maybe Atlanta will be opening a resort pretty soon I'm in Atlanta right now on business. They won't be opening a resort anytime soon. The storm rolled through here at 60 - 65 degrees and heavy rain. I think I'll stick with PA weather :-). At least there are chances of snow. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrwilco Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 that would be insane amounts of work... roundtop did it sort of a long time ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method9455 Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 i mean i dont mean to be negative nancy, but holy shit, how can bear save the snow. its been raining for what seems like 3 days straight now, and atleast a couple of inches, with the rain continuing on through tonight.. i hate pa weather. maybe Atlanta will be opening a resort pretty soon The only thing is that yesterday it was really warm, 50-60, and today it was more like 40. That is a big difference. So even though it rained more today, it probably won't be as bad as yesterday. But yea, it is going to be REALLY bad at Bear. If Hunter was showing dirt patches on previously opened trails at around 5pm today, it will be bad to see the webcam at Bear in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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