Kyle Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 Damn close.....it's. 17 J Law. Have you skied any of the magne traction skis? I haven't myself, just wondering what you thought of it if you did. seems interesting, but who knows....gimmicky or whatever... Elan has some weird stuff out too....with rocker only on one side....true left and right skis.....my pod leader is an elan rep and I've been wanting to get on some to mess around with them, I just never got around to it. A lot of people seem to really like the elan's but I've heard that the magne traction is love it or hate it type with a strange feeling at first. I guess you could answer my question on the magne traction as well... Does it really add anything to it? It seems like it would, snowboarders seem to like it. The magne traction gnu and Rossignol runs on their snowboards is great. I'd assume it would be the same on skis. It adds a few more contact points along the edge while still giving it a rocker feel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixilplix Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) A lot of people seem to really like the elan's but I've heard that the magne traction is love it or hate it type with a strange feeling at first. I guess you could answer my question on the magne traction as well... Does it really add anything to it? It seems like it would, snowboarders seem to like it. I have been riding Magne Traction Lib boards since they came on the scene..IMO they really seem to grip on hard snow a little bit better....but like I said that's just my opinion.. Last year I bought the Lib skis..Just wanted to switch it up from snowboarding..I'm certainly no pro when it comes to two planks...To me they ski great.They gripped well...always seemed to go where I pointed them...Never felt "squirrely"....Maybe they felt good to me cause I was used to Magne Traction boards..IDK...I should say I really only skied groomers with them... I am a total tard on skis in bumps/pow/trees so I can't really comment on there performance in those places... I prolly should also mention I ran them with Full Tilt booters,which ins't a super stiff boot.... Some people love em....some say they suck....But I love my Libby's.....Try them out...That's the only way to really find out if you like them......I always liked that graphic...Hoped this helped Edited November 25, 2014 by Mixilplix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justo8484 Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 I can't say that I hate magnetraction but I don't think the concept translates entirely to skis. On a snowboard, you've got two points of leverage over one edge, whereas skis you've only got one point of leverage per edge. From what I remember, the ripples in the magnetraction boards correspond to approximately where your bindings are on the board, giving you the most leverage at the "serrated" points. On skis, you've really only got one spot where this would carry over from the way things work on a board, but the magnetraction extends much farther. Not that it necessarily skis worse, but I didn't notice it being any better is all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 It's gotta be a bitch to clean up edges on those 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 It's gotta be a bitch to clean up edges on those This is actually pretty key. The idea behind Magne Traction is increased grip in icy conditions. Right there is enough to know it doesn't work, race courses are incredibly icy. I rode across the bottom section of the Olympic Downhill the year it was at Snowbasin, when you went up the can lift and ran out by the avy gas x you had to cross it to get back to JP lift. It's rock hard snow, like unbelievably firm concrete. If magnetraction worked it would be on every race ski. From a physics standpoint you get further proof that it's marketing bs. When you go downhill on skis your converting gravitational energy into kinetic energy, in a skidded turn your wasting energy due to the increased resistance between the ski and the snow and because generally the skier is too slow to match their velocity direction down the hill with the direction the ski is pointed in. Essentially a skidded turn is less efficient in turning the gravitational energy into kinetic energy. A carved turn in which the ski is on edge has considerably less drag as obviously the only real point of friction is a little base and mostly edge. The other factor is the velocity direction is almost perfectly lined up with the direction of the skis. This is an inherent necessity of the movement along with the radius of the turn matching the sidecut radius of the ski asuming of course the ski is flat. Now you can screw with the radius of the ski somewhat by flexing the ski, obviously if you put more energy into the ski the c shape of the ski or radius is now tighter and hence you get a tighter turn. Straight skis were "tough" to turn because you can obviously only get that c shape with significant flex, you got to really leg it out however if you start with a ski with "shape" in this example you can consider it pre flexed, or more simply the ski already has a c shape to it. When the ski is on edge you actually need reverse camber to execute a carved turn, this is the flex described above. Your weight turns the ski into a u shape and hence why manufactures have been adding "rocker" or reverse camber to lot's of skis. Now imagine a ski on edge, if it's not flexed only the tip and tail will touch the snow, there is a gap in the middle of the ski. The gap is dependent on the shape of the ski or the radius. A ski with a smaller sidecut radius (and larger gap between sidecut edge and snow surface), can accommodate a greater amount of reverse camber, which means it can carve smaller radius turns. A ski with a larger sidecut radius (and smaller gap between sidecut edge and snow surface), can accommodate a lesser amount of reverse camber, which means it is best suited for carving larger radius turns. Skis with a larger sidecut radius are best suited for carved turns with a small tilt angle (since they can only accommodate a lesser degree of reverse camber). And skis with a smaller sidecut radius work well for larger tilt angles (since they can accommodate a greater degree of reverse camber). Ok so what does all of this have to do with fucking magnetraction ? Magnetraction supposedly increases grip right ? Grip is both very simple and very complex but essentially when the ski is angled into the snow surface the angle of the skiers force and the ski has to be above 90 degrees which is actually pretty easy and (this is the key part) the ski edge has to be able to penetrate the snow surface. The thing that looks like a W is the angle between the applied force and the ski, that's the thing I'm talking about that has to be above 90 degrees above. That's easy, the part that causes 99.9999999% of trouble is the penetrating of the snow or the FR in the diagram above. A world cup skier can put literally all of their weight into the snow, there FR's are incredible but as you move down the scale of skiers they are able to generate less FR. The molecular structure of "icy" snow is such that the molecules are packed tighter together thus one way to get penetration is to have a smaller cutting edge aka edge sharpness. If you run the right angles, remove dings and get the right kind of burr on the edge your more able to separate those tightly packed molecules. No where in there do you see any mention of contact points, honestly that's total bullshit the ski isn't slipping because of contacts points it's slipping because you can't get any penetration into the snow and that is way worse if the ski edge is crap which seems likely when you have wavy as fuck edge shapes. You want a ski that grips everywhere no matter what it can be done, I've done it with our ski machine by accident, it fucking sucks because your going to blow a knee out and you actually need a ski that slips but it will grip on pretty much anything and that's all due to the edge burr. If you could really up the amount of contact sure it would work but a decent skier's issue isn't point of contact it's body shit mixed in with a little bit of tuning. So take our racing league, Jeff is faster than me (catching up brother you better watch out lol) because he can generate more FR and at higher levels of angulation. His edges are probably in better shape than mine but that's minor compared to the actual shit of skiing which has to do with things like leg strength, flexibility and experience not ski design or some laughable shit like points of contact. Magnetraction like 50% of the camber game is marketing bullshit, certainly that doesn't make the ski worse it just doesn't make it better ......this is a long ass post to essentially say what Justo said LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar73 Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 I love free body diagrams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 This is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbike-ski Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 he said penetration 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted November 25, 2014 Report Share Posted November 25, 2014 A super version of magne traction does exist which is serrated edges. They are on the fringe in French mountaineering circles and occasionally pop up in WC SL events, Vonn if I remember right tried them. They are obviously considerably sharper and have many orders of magnitude more contact points than magne traction. There again though there is very limited implementation which means they don't fucking work outside of really niche situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Got a screaming deal on 2013 203 Shiro, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger but that's a very interesting length. 33r should be very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justo8484 Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Got a screaming deal on 2013 203 Shiro, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger but that's a very interesting length. 33r should be very interesting.can I borrow them to straightline challenge once it's open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Got a screaming deal on 2013 203 Shiro, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger but that's a very interesting length. 33r should be very interesting. Perfect for launching falls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrilledSteezeSandwich Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Be prepared gapers at blue stare at my shiros like they are double D boobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poconoceancity Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) I just rented a pair of ski boots for the season, I through out my other pair because they were so uncomfortable. Edited December 16, 2014 by poconoceancity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 can I borrow them to straightline challenge once it's open? hahah you know it....they are a bit of a science experiment, they are pretty stupid for 99.9% of the skiing I do but I'm thinking super 7 but more stable with slightly more predictable hard snow performance and better float. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justo8484 Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 hahah you know it....they are a bit of a science experiment, they are pretty stupid for 99.9% of the skiing I do but I'm thinking super 7 but more stable with slightly more predictable hard snow performance and better float.so, a better ski than the super 7 in pretty much every aspect except weight. Have I mentioned I don't like the 7 series from Rossi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrilledSteezeSandwich Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 I just rented a pair of ski boots for the season, I through out my other pair because they were so uncomfortable. I thought you just snowboard?? Why'd you rent vs buy ski boots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toast21602 Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 so, a better ski than the super 7 in pretty much every aspect except weight. Have I mentioned I don't like the 7 series from Rossi? I hate them. Fyi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) so, a better ski than the super 7 in pretty much every aspect except weight. Have I mentioned I don't like the 7 series from Rossi? They sell alot of them.... The super is a solid everyday western ski, the pintail is a failure but it's solid. The lower part of the lineup I never liked, a bunch of noodles. The Squad 7 however is a vast vast improvement on the rest of the line, flat square tail, easy big ripper carving and super stable. Again though the pow performance is lacking. My western skiing at the moment is an april dealio with the fam, figured these should be good for groomers that vary from firm cord to spring slop and if it snows they should do better in the heavy wet pow. Edited December 16, 2014 by Johnny Law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poconoceancity Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Doug, I still ski with my 4 year old. I through my boots away last year, too painful. I rented comfortable boots a half size too big. Hopefully after Xmas week I won't need them ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrilledSteezeSandwich Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Doug, I still ski with my 4 year old. I through my boots away last year, too painful. I rented comfortable boots a half size too big. Hopefully after Xmas week I won't need them ever again. Wow...you're such a good dad!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poconoceancity Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Thanks Doug...everybody keeps telling me it will all be worth it soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrilledSteezeSandwich Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Thanks Doug...everybody keeps telling me it will all be worth it soon. Yup until they're in college and date an older bad boy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poconoceancity Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Then he can pay for their ski trips and I can retire. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Law Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Thanks Doug...everybody keeps telling me it will all be worth it soon. Gonna get a little gay here for a second but teenagers can be real assholes, maybe yours are different who knows but during those teen years the only thing my family really did together was skiing and attending my court dates with the district justice. I can think of no greater thing than to maybe one day watch my daughter rip down fantasy ridge in waist deep blower......... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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